Premium vintage interest dead?

[Haywood_Milton]

Can I ask why you don't sell vintage watches(Vintage Rolex being particularly in your sphere of interest) ?

I am in the lucky position to be able to buy and not have to sell them. They may bring enjoyment, increase in value and serve as on-site exemplars for others which cross my path. NOT selling mil subs that cost £5,000 less than 25 years ago has proved to be a moderately sensible decision and the same could be said of many others in the safes. Everything has a price of course, if push comes to shove.
I have sold one low-spec mil sub, a Paul Newman Daytona and a full set 5513….and for various reasons probably regret selling every one.
For me the greatest collector pleasure comes from the research above all, then the chase, market research, negotiation and deal. Finding other examples or matching information / detaiil that most others won’t have access to is the greatest reward for years of collecting, observation and record-keeping.
If this were just about money, how many of my tz-uk posts would exist?

[Norbert]

I am in the lucky position to be able to buy and not have to sell them. They may bring enjoyment, increase in value and serve as on-site exemplars for others which cross my path. NOT selling mil subs that cost £5,000 less than 25 years ago has proved to be a moderately sensible decision and the same could be said of many others in the safes. Everything has a price of course, if push comes to shove.
I have sold one low-spec mil sub, a Paul Newman Daytona and a full set 5513….and for various reasons probably regret selling every one.
For me the greatest collector pleasure comes from the research above all, then the chase, market research, negotiation and deal. Finding other examples or matching information / detaiil that most others won’t have access to is the greatest reward for years of collecting, observation and record-keeping.
If this were just about money, how many of my tz-uk posts would exist?

The second paragraph in the above reply , as far as I am concerned says it all , I totally agree .
Unfortunately I came upon “”this forums”” area of Horology later in life , however, I have and still enjoy other “ species “ , these as a horological group now include the wrist watch.

Hayward Miltons sentiments encapsulate my horological experience to date and the passion this hobby and educational journey continues to stir.


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

[MacDeath]

Just adding my own comments after such varied replies to my original post, which if anything, at least show vintage interest is alive and well!

Seems clear a few of us have been lost to the modern watch, quite a few collect lower value vintage and a smaller few collect premium vintage.

Postings aren't common because it's been done before and interest in vintage seems to have eroded, but it is lurking and many would enjoy stories. Hope to see more posts this year!

[walkerwek1958]

As both a collector and repairer I could post plenty, but it's time-consuming to take pictures and write a story. After a few days the post is lost in the mire and it feels like waste of time.

I`m a strong advocate of older watches, if they're restored properly they will keep time to within a few secs/day, keep the water out, and run reliably.

[Hood]

As both a collector and repairer I could post plenty, but it's time-consuming to take pictures and write a story. After a few days the post is lost in the mire and it feels like waste of time.

That's the spirit.

[M4tt]

That's the spirit.

You could try setting a shining example for us all to follow. I'm sure it would help.

[Hood]

https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...ge-Rolex/page3

[M4tt]

I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with this distinction between 'premium' and 'lower value' vintage. Cost seems a lousy way of valuing a watch. Sure, cost matters to some, but accuracy, history, engineering and a host of other criteria matter to others. Often, when a watch is rare enough, who knows how to price it? For example, the very first watch in space, with a lovely little movement, is still available for the price of a decent pizza.

Or this: a beautifully finished, highly jewelled Dent signed movement of the very highest quality, in a solid silver heavyweight patent waterproof Borgel case from before WWI with an enamel Dent dial.



Compared to a London Rolex from a decade or so later:



Value, it's such an ephemeral thing...

[M4tt]

https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...ge-Rolex/page3

Nice Explorer! I stand corrected.

[Hood]

Different strokes for different folks.
The watch needs to be something I would wear if it's to pique my interest and lead to me doing the necessary reading on it.

[Hood]

Nice Explorer! I stand corrected.

Thank you.
Let it go unfortunately.
Kash had it for about 10 days which is an age for him.

[Senninha]

For me the greatest collector pleasure comes from the research above all, then the chase, market research, negotiation and deal.

Very well put, that encapsulates well a very interesting part of the ownership. Likewise whenever I take out a watch to wear I remember all of that, and the research helps me know more about it, and appreciate it all the more.

[MacDeath]

I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with this distinction between 'premium' and 'lower value' vintage. Cost seems a lousy way of valuing a watch. Sure, cost matters to some, but accuracy, history, engineering and a host of other criteria matter to others. Often, when a watch is rare enough, who knows how to price it? For example, the very first watch in space, with a lovely little movement, is still available for the price of a decent pizza.

Value, it's such an ephemeral thing...

Everyone is free to post, however, this one was identifying the decline in posts of the more expensive vintage watches.

Nothing more, but it has developed into a discussion of vintage as a whole.

Different strokes.

[Bluetinfloor]

https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...ge-Rolex/page3

I still have the Type 1 maxi and Red sub on page 1 of the 2019 thread, sold 2 5513's last year but still have a few others to enjoy.

Got involved in the vintage Rolex world about 20 years ago, on TZ UK since 2008 and agree there has been a drop off in vintage posts, Rolex or otherwise in the last year or two. Not as obsessed as I once was, but nice watches to have collected over the years - the thrill was most definitely in the chase, same for most watches probably.

[ac11111]

Examples from perezcope exposing the shenanigans in vintage puts me off

https://perezcope.com

[Doug86]

Examples from perezcope exposing the shenanigans in vintage puts me off

https://perezcope.com

What an eye opening link! Fantastic resource and I think I'll be going down a rabbit hole this morning!

[Carlton-Browne]

Examples from perezcope exposing the shenanigans in vintage puts me off

https://perezcope.com

I think you can always find horror stories to put you off but it highlights how much you need to know your stuff. My advice would be to find a niche and stick to it and try not for it to be vintage Rolex or one of the other obvious candidates. The other thing to remember is there is no such thing as a trustworthy auction house. Anywhere.

It's a pity because I would really like a Bubbleback but wouldn't know where to start. Funds and time mean that I will continue to prioritise what's on my UG project/acquisition list - I don't need a new malaise.

[ac11111]

What an eye opening link! Fantastic resource and I think I'll be going down a rabbit hole this morning!

His instagram account is even more revealing.

I like the look of vintage, though the level of fakery is out of this world. For example recutting/laser welding to as new, then bashing and scratching it up to give it authenticity!

Too much skill, knowledge and money in the vintage market is to blame

[wileeeeeey]

His instagram account is even more revealing.

I like the look of vintage, though the level of fakery is out of this world. For example recutting/laser welding to as new, then bashing and scratching it up to give it authenticity!

Too much skill, knowledge and money in the vintage market is to blame

The skill level of @watchfriend.de is also worrying.

I joke with a friend that he's banned from using the term NOS

https://instagram.com/watchfriend.de

[Carlton-Browne]

The skill level of @watchfriend.de is also worrying.

That sort of reinforces my point. I contacted them about a welding job on a UG last year and basically, if it it's not a Rolex, they aren't interested.

[Hood]

His instagram account is even more revealing.

I like the look of vintage, though the level of fakery is out of this world. For example recutting/laser welding to as new, then bashing and scratching it up to give it authenticity!

Too much skill, knowledge and money in the vintage market is to blame

I don't see laser welding or adding the same metal to a case and cutting it back as fakery.
Rolliworks in the US can do this on vintage cases(and are well regarded) and its not something kept under wraps on the vintage rolex forum.
I'd rather have a case re-established to near original dimensions than a case with half the metal missing.

[ac11111]

I don't see laser welding or adding the same metal to a case and cutting it back as fakery.
Rolliworks in the US can do this on vintage cases(and are well regarded) and its not something kept under wraps on the vintage rolex forum.
I'd rather have a case re-established to near original dimensions than a case with half the metal missing.

Disclosure is important I feel. If recut and adding metal, and made to look NOS it should be advertised as such and not just sold without that disclosure, otherwise somebody might feel it’s some kinda barn find, put in a draw for 40 years and found.

Even worse as perezcope has shown, rewelding to make unpolished, but then bashing it up to pretend it’s used but unpolished

[Hood]

Disclosure is important I feel. If recut and adding metal, and made to look NOS it should be advertised as such and not just sold without that disclosure, otherwise somebody might feel it’s some kinda barn find, put in a draw for 40 years and found.

Even worse as perezcope has shown, rewelding to make unpolished, but then bashing it up to pretend it’s used but unpolished

Absolutely
Disclosure is everything

[Bluetinfloor]

Examples from perezcope exposing the shenanigans in vintage puts me off

https://perezcope.com

Yep, some interesting stories there, generally relating to ultra high value models though that certainly I wouldn't be looking to buy!

[watchlovr]

I think you can always find horror stories to put you off but it highlights how much you need to know your stuff.

It's a pity because I would really like a Bubbleback but wouldn't know where to start. Funds and time mean that I will continue to prioritise what's on my UG project/acquisition list - I don't need a new malaise.

You could speak to Mike Woods, along with his other collections, he has some lovely original bb’s and Prince’s

[Carlton-Browne]

You could speak to Mike Woods, along with his other collections, he has some lovely original bb’s and Prince’s

That's a really good idea. Thank you.

[marksh]

I like some of the modern stuff but for me you can’t beat a bit of Vintage on the wrist with some patina & character and the thoughts and stories of what and where they’ve been & done and how they all differ in how they age and look .