SC deal gone wrong - where to go from here?

[lewie]

Maybe the recipient could pop down to his local callers office (before 2pm) and ask to speak with a delivery manager - ask for his assistance and explain the situation- help get to the bottom of the situation
I’ve completed investigations and given postmen warnings around leaving packages (not SD) in porches- customers have complained they’ve not received them - only to have the eagle eyed postman spot the empty packages in the recycle bin a few days later- I’d rather leave a P739 card the next time they have a package( in no way saying that’s the case here)

[hughtrimble]

Libel is not about lying. You could honestly believe a statement and that wouldn't be a defence. The issue is the effect on the complainants reputation . And if you believe that accusing a postman of forging a signature on a special delivery package isn't damaging to his reputation.....try that in court and see where it gets you.

If the buyer is telling the truth, that's exactly what the postie said he/she did, though I'd not use the term 'forging a signature' as no where has that been said - he could sign it with a simple line as there's no requirement for the signature for RMSD to be that of the named recipient (evidently as shown by many here saying that get others to sign for their packages). It's not exactly unknown behaviour for a postie to sign for a package.

Also, out of interest I thought message boards and forums came under slander rather than libel due to their conversational nature? Not that slander is acceptable either!

It'll be pretty hard to ID the postie. There's also no benefit to identifying him/her whatsoever. No reason to think the postie was doing anything but try and be helpful so the recipient didn't have to go to the depot.

[deepreddave]

Haven't read through this all but credible evidence is king. If the buyer is willing to provide sworn testimony that he was elsewhere when delivery occurred, preferably with third party corroboration, then it's going to be difficult for RM to evidence the contrary.
Both buyer and seller have to cooperate to get the right result here as insurance companies in general tend to start from a position of denial and shifting the burden of proof to the claimant.
It's likely to be time consuming and a little frustrating but perseverance usually pays dividends.
Good luck to the OP. I've had no problems with lots of RMSD deals on here which demonstrates the value of the forum 😀

[stefmcd]

Best case scenario is the postie 'formally' admitting to the inappropriate action, taking a written warning and RM refunding. I can see many people not doing the honourable thing.

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[Smiffy333]

Final say on this topic from the buyer as it’s all getting a bit out of hand with all the allegations flying around here and the laughable accusations of libel against the postie.

The postie freely admitted to signing for the package and leaving it in the porch and does the same for other neighbours, missus was in earshot and heard the whole conversation. He did say he would let his manager know but whether that will be the case when actually asked who knows.


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[blackal]

Final say on this topic from the buyer as it’s all getting a bit out of hand with all the allegations flying around here and the laughable accusations of libel against the postie.

The postie freely admitted to signing for the package and leaving it in the porch and does the same for other neighbours, missus was in earshot and heard the whole conversation. He did say he would let his manager know but whether that will be the case when actually asked who knows.


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You really needed to post that - every 2 hours to get it into the skulls of some on here.........

Good luck with it all

[Rbains0708]

You've done your bit. It's the postman and royal mails fault


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[Kingstepper]

You've done your bit. It's the postman and royal mails fault


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Or the person who stole it, all of this speculation seems to be ignoring the thief.

Would it be visible from the street, are there many passers-by etc.

[Sweepinghand]

In my experience (and I’m not saying it’s 100% correct), RMSD parcels are NEVER signed for by the postman and left. If the owner isn’t in then a card is left and proof of address has to be given at collection.

If it was only posted “signed for” then the postman will sometimes sign it himself.

From the above, I’d say that there’s probably more investigation required.
At this point I don’t think I’d be giving a refund unless you sent it “signed for” rather than RMSD.

A path signed for one for me once
They thought doing me a favour then posted through the letterbox

The item would never have fit through a letterbox and ended up being a fraud case on eBay
The postman’s intervention caused total probs

[Sparjar]

I don't really see why this is a problem

Whenever I've received a RMSD in recent years I've been asked to sign for it on a digital machine, which stores my signature. Surely if the postie signed for it he wouldn't know what the buyer's signature looked like so it'd be easy to prove it wasn't his? Just a photo of the back of a couple of his credit cards or similar, compared to the digital signature on the delivery note, would prove for certain he didn't sign for the watch. Then go to RM with the evidence and they'll see it's their cock up and cough up the insurance cash.

There's one issue though, I can't remember last time when I signed for a parcel and the signature ended up looking like my signature, it almost always ends up looking like something that a 2 year old would draw. Those terminals usually have an early naughties resistive touch screen with loads of lag which is nasty to write on, even using a stylus.

[Pelicans]

Some serious hyperbole and overreaction going on in here.. libel, forged signatures etc. Just wait until RM have investigated!

[sestrel]

Sorry situation for both parties, wait until p.o. has looked into it first. My posties usually v. good, even though they know me, they stick to the rules and leave a card, thankfully.

[Redwolf]

I would report this to the chairman’s office and get it investigated properly and the postman concerned interviewed. If his story is at odds with the buyer’s, I would involve the police.

The postman has far, far too much to lose - and losing a Special Delivery is a big deal.

I’d just get it investigated properly and take it from there.

This

[thebuffoon]

In my experience (and I’m not saying it’s 100% correct), RMSD parcels are NEVER signed for by the postman and left. If the owner isn’t in then a card is left and proof of address has to be given at collection.

If it was only posted “signed for” then the postman will sometimes sign it himself.

From the above, I’d say that there’s probably more investigation required.
At this point I don’t think I’d be giving a refund unless you sent it “signed for” rather than RMSD.

Our postie does unless I leave a note not to. Getting to our Post Office is a pain so unless it’s something of value, I’m prepared to take it on the chin should the unlikely happen and someone nicks it from the porch.

[draftsmann]

An observation . Within this thread is the potential for a serious libel. If the postman can be identified as a result of the thread, then both his integrity and ability to do his job honestly are being traduced. And if he is cleared by the RM, he, backed by his union, would appear to have a clear case to sue on the basis that his reputation has been badly , and wrongly damaged.
And who could blame him. Don't make serious, highly damaging, claims unless you are certain you could support them. I speak from some experience of these matters..

Being realistic, people that deliver stuff aren’t likely to be in much of a position to pursue a libel action for damage to reputation.

[Omegamanic]

Libel is not about lying. You could honestly believe a statement and that wouldn't be a defence.
The issue is the effect on the complainants reputation . And if you believe that accusing a postman of forging a signature on a special delivery package isn't damaging to his reputation.....
Anyway. I used to get paid for this, and I'm done.

It is in this instance.

If you are trying to say that other people’s comments are libelous against the “postie” that’s a different matter and I suggest that any comments that might come close to that have been made based on the information provided in this very thread - so I’d simply repeat my previous post!

[kermorvan666]

Really difficult situation - both buyer and seller haven't done anything wrong and hence feel aggrieved. Based on the discussion previously it does sound like the onus is on the seller and they have the insurance to cover the loss, but i would be inclined to hold-off temporarily making a refund to ensure full co-operation from the buyer until the royal mail investigation has completed.

It's not just the royal mail where this stuff happens - i had my wife's diamond engagement ring left in the broom cupboard outside my flat by Fed-Ex despite assurances that the delivery required a signature.(l also got a low value amazon delivery that same afternoon that was left on top of the Fed-Ex box but luckily nothing was taken).

[jameswrx]

I guess one question may be, have you ever asked the postman to leave stuff for you? If so the only way he’ll fight the grilling will be to make it clear you asked him to do so on your behalf. Granted you may never have done but seems unusual for a postman to do it without the homeowner ever requesting.

My postman will leave stuff for me but he leaves it in a pre-arranged (hidden) place and I assume responsibility for it going missing as I’ve asked him to do it. He knows this as was very concerned he could get in big trouble if something went missing and I complained. Deal was he always leaves a card telling me where it is and I’ve said it’s on me if it gets stolen. I’d never condone it if it’s just going to be left on the door step or in a porch. Just think of all the junk mail peddlers!

One thing though, if I knew it was going to be an expensive watch I’d make sure it was delivered when I was home. Luckily I’m self employed but if you can’t do that at least get it delivered to work. I try and limit the potential for things going missing if they’re expensive and having an expensive watch delivered to an empty home wouldn’t be something I’d choose to do.

My postman gets a Xmas ‘drink’ from me for his efforts & honesty.

If someone on here sent me a £250 or below watch & my postman signed for it & someone stole it, I’d suck it up as I’d asked him to do it. No way I’d drop him in it after asking him to do it for me. Anything more valuable I’d make sure I knew when the seller was sending it special delivery and make sure I was there to receive it.

Or the person who stole it, all of this speculation seems to be ignoring the thief.

Would it be visible from the street, are there many passers-by etc.

My money would be on it being one of the many people that deliver leaflets or those charity bags.

[thebuffoon]

Being realistic, people that deliver stuff aren’t likely to be in much of a position to pursue a libel action for damage to reputation.

As someone who funds and insures litigation, I love funding libel and slander cases and it does give people access to justice doing so.

[Andyg156]

In my experience (and I’m not saying it’s 100% correct), RMSD parcels are NEVER signed for by the postman and left. If the owner isn’t in then a card is left and proof of address has to be given at collection.

If it was only posted “signed for” then the postman will sometimes sign it himself.

Happens all the time hear in Poole, with Royal Mail. I've also had watches dropped off with neighbours and no card left.
Had other couriers leaving stuff on doorstep. Some of this stuff has been sent by a watch company.

Always worries me that this will happen here, law of averages.

Op - Good luck with outcome .


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[draftsmann]

As someone who funds and insures litigation, I love funding libel and slander cases and it does give people access to justice doing so.

I’m happy to be corrected if I’m wrong but as far as I’m aware legal aid isn’t available in the UK for defamation claimants.

Privately most things are insurable. But I'd wager that very few postmen would take out such insurance. Again of course I’m happy to be corrected. Perhaps you could indicate where such cover could be sourced and the likely cost if that is your line of business?

[Griswold]

Some interesting views on this subject particularly on the honesty of the buyer!

So the buyers side of the story......

I realised there was a problem on the day the parcel should have been received when checking the parcel tracking number it stated it had been delivered at 10:18 and signed for (with my surname but not one of our signatures) on a day when I'd left for work at 07:00 and the missus at 08:30. Checked with some neighbours to see if anyone else had signed for it and the postie had forgot to leave a card but none were aware of a delivery. Made the seller aware who subsequently submitted a claim.

At the weekend had a knock on the door from the postie enquiring about the parcel and he admitted he had signed for the parcel and left it in the 'open porch' to save me the hassle of going to the sorting office. Was kind of surprised he did admit it to be honest and do feel a bit sorry for him as he was trying to do me a favour, the road is a fairly quiet no through road so he thought it would be safe there although it was on full view from the road. Informed the seller of what I'd been told.

The seller then informed me he had received confirmation his claim had been rejected and I would have to submit a claim, which I have done even having to provide the sellers details and his proof of receipt?! There is no 'apparently' taking up to 30 days as this is the time stated in when the claim was submitted. I appreciate it is a an unusual situation but the contract to deliver the watch was between the seller and Royal Mail and any compensation would be refunded to the seller. From personal experience any parcels I've sent that have not been received or damaged I've always refunded the buyer immediately and claimed against the courier involved.

From an honesty point of view I've had hundreds of positive sales feedback on other forums and have purchased a 3K on here and actually waited a couple of weeks before receiving the watch as the seller had gone on holiday.

Hopefully this will be resolved as it is obviously a failing on Royal Mail part and no fault of the seller or buyer.

It's the highlighted bit that puzzles me. Why would the postman specifically call back at the weekend and ask about the parcel?

If this was witnessed by someone then I believe that there are solid grounds for a claim against Royal Mail as it clearly proves what the buyer is saying.

[Smiffy333]

It's the highlighted bit that puzzles me. Why would the postman specifically call back at the weekend and ask about the parcel?

If this was witnessed by someone then I believe that there are solid grounds for a claim against Royal Mail as it clearly proves what the buyer is saying.

He asked because he had heard about the sellers complaint. But that’s now got me a bit confused as to why that claim wasn’t upheld. Assume it was because they saw the parcel had been delivered and signed for and don’t check with the postman.


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[aldfort]

He asked because he had heard about the sellers complaint. But that’s now got me a bit confused as to why that claim wasn’t upheld. Assume it was because they saw the parcel had been delivered and signed for and don’t check with the postman.


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How had he heard about the sellers complaint? Is he a member of this forum?

[Mick P]

If ever a thread was testament to the risk aligned to sending watches through the post, this is it. Unsubstantiated accusations run galore and emotions are far to high and all this can be avoided by a simple face to face meeting.

The Buyer, Seller and the Postman now have several weeks of hassle in front of them all because two people could not be bothered to meet up.

If a much wanted watch is 100 miles up the road, take a drive with the wife, buy the watch and then visit somewhere local and treat yourself to a decent meal in a good restaurant. Make the event enjoyable rather than sitting at home biting your finger nails over when and if your watch actually arrives safe and sound.

I have done this 3 times and have always come back smiling.

[bwest76]

No,I will use the Royal Mail as I have for years if they get it wrong then I will sort it out with them.

Can you imagine thousands of people driving around the country rather than using the postal service that’s just mad.

[Saint-Just]

[walkerwek1958]

If ever a thread was testament to the risk aligned to sending watches through the post, this is it. Unsubstantiated accusations run galore and emotions are far to high and all this can be avoided by a simple face to face meeting.

The Buyer, Seller and the Postman now have several weeks of hassle in front of them all because two people could not be bothered to meet up.

If a much wanted watch is 100 miles up the road, take a drive with the wife, buy the watch and then visit somewhere local and treat yourself to a decent meal in a good restaurant. Make the event enjoyable rather than sitting at home biting your finger nails over when and if your watch actually arrives safe and sound.

I have done this 3 times and have always come back smiling.

Clearly, it's not practical for everyone to do that, especially when longer distances are involved, but for expensive watches I think it makes sense. If people can`t make the commitment to spend a day of their precious time travelling and accepting the cost of doing so, they don`t want the deal badly enough. I've done this when the watch has been an expensive one, it takes a lot of the worry out of the equation.

People are getting lazy thesedays, they're so used to buying stuff on line and expecting it to arrive as planned. In my experience RMSD is extremely reliable but clearly that depends on the postman following the rules at all times. I`m surprised at this story, my understanding is that RMSD packages should never be left in a safe place, they must be signed for and handed over. Hopefully this will get resolved, no-one will lose money, the postman will keep his job albeit with a bootprint on his arse.

Paul

[jameswrx]

But why (if you’re willing to take a day off travelling) not just arrange with the seller to send it on a (for example) Wednesday morning and have a morning off work Thursday to accept delivery?

RMSD is pre 1pm so guaranteed next day.

No brainier surely if it’s an expensive watch?

Or, if you can’t possibly ever leave work, get it delivered to work!


Why anyone would have an expensive item delivered to an empty place doesn’t compute with me. I’d be way to worried about exactly this situation!

[200mwaterresistant]

No,I will use the Royal Mail as I have for years if they get it wrong then I will sort it out with them.

Can you imagine thousands of people driving around the country rather than using the postal service that’s just mad.

Yes. This.

[blackal]

Why anyone would have an expensive item delivered to an empty place doesn’t compute with me. I’d be way to worried about exactly this situation!

Because RM are NOT meant to leave RMSD items in an open porch!

To try and help further - they are meant to leave a card, and you have to pick up from the depot, bringing ID.

- - - Updated - - -

How had he heard about the sellers complaint? Is he a member of this forum?

I'm guessing you have read the OP and nothing in-between?

[AAddict]

I work for Royal Mail. The general way of things these days is get rid of anything you can 'safely out of sight'. So your tracked, delivery scanned, regular packets and parcels etc will where possible be hidden on your property with a card to tell you where the item is through your letterbox. They do not want you to return items to the office unless you have no choice (apart from Special Delivery).

Up until a few years ago things were much more relaxed and often agreements between the postman and recipient were made "you sign for anything mate and leave in my recycling box" etc etc But in my office at least, we would never sign for a Special Delivery item, someone got sacked for doing just that. Very sad, and the item turned up behind the mantle clock where the son of the recipient had picked up from the 'safeplace' and put it with other mail. This didn't have any outcome on the guy loosing his job though.

[Kingstepper]

I'm guessing you have read the OP and nothing in-between?

Thought was a reference to postie not buyer.

[robert75]

Some serious hyperbole and overreaction going on in here.. libel, forged signatures etc. Just wait until RM have investigated!

Most sensible comment so far.

[Montello]

But why (if you’re willing to take a day off travelling) not just arrange with the seller to send it on a (for example) Wednesday morning and have a morning off work Thursday to accept delivery?

RMSD is pre 1pm so guaranteed next day.

No brainier surely if it’s an expensive watch?

Or, if you can’t possibly ever leave work, get it delivered to work!


Why anyone would have an expensive item delivered to an empty place doesn’t compute with me. I’d be way to worried about exactly this situation!

I’ve done that, if the delivery driver is a crook you just sit around like a lemon for an item that never arrives.

You just refresh the delivery record on line and suddenly find some has signed for your item that never arrived.

[blackal]

Thought was a reference to postie not buyer.

It was, and explained on here by the buyer in a preceding post.

[nunya]

If ever a thread was testament to the risk aligned to sending watches through the post, this is it. Unsubstantiated accusations run galore and emotions are far to high and all this can be avoided by a simple face to face meeting.

The Buyer, Seller and the Postman now have several weeks of hassle in front of them all because two people could not be bothered to meet up.

If a much wanted watch is 100 miles up the road, take a drive with the wife, buy the watch and then visit somewhere local and treat yourself to a decent meal in a good restaurant. Make the event enjoyable rather than sitting at home biting your finger nails over when and if your watch actually arrives safe and sound.

I have done this 3 times and have always come back smiling.

Done the same on more than one occasion, it also allows you time for a visual inspection before completing the deal.

Furthest I’ve been is over 400 mile round trip, cheap flights and hotel made a weekend away out of it. A most pleasurable way to conduct business

[dkpw]

On a positive note, it's encouraging to see a thread entitled "SC deal gone wrong" in which the buyer and seller are co-operating in a difficult situation. Best of luck to both and to the postman who was attempting to be helpful. I hope any recriminations are not severe.

This is what one chap in the US did, fed up with package thieves.

[murilloinf]

On a positive note, it's encouraging to see a thread entitled "SC deal gone wrong" in which the buyer and seller are co-operating in a difficult situation. Best of luck to both and to the postman who was attempting to be helpful. I hope any recriminations are not severe.

This is what one chap in the US did, fed up with package thieves.

That's how its done...

[thenikjones]

^^* I have lead a sheltered life. I never realised casual theft was so rife.

[jameswrx]

Because RM are NOT meant to leave RMSD items in an open porch!

But this thread and many others are testament that they DO leave items, so why take the chance on high value? It’s not the first thread, and won’t be the last.

I’ve done that, if the delivery driver is a crook you just sit around like a lemon for an item that never arrives.

You just refresh the delivery record on line and suddenly find some has signed for your item that never arrived.

That’s not Royal Mail special delivery though surely?

I have had similar myself with other couriers, and funnily enough a £1500 Watch. Sat in all day for the promised delivery, went online in the late afternoon to see “customer not home, taken to local depot”. Nobody had come round, no card. When I looked further into it he’d logged attempted delivery just before it was logged into the local depot. What he’d actually done is just taken a load of parcels he couldn’t be bothered to deliver to the depot. I had to google the location, turned out to be a local corner shop. I went there and it was dumped in an isle with a load of other parcels. This has happened twice with the same courier. I asked the shop keeper to complain to him and she said other people have moaned too.

[Der Amf]

Although the RM seem desperate not to take parcels back to the sorting office to be collected, they are processing Amazon deliveries there - on Tuesday I'll be going my local sorting office to collect my incoming watch.

[seadog1408]

Where's postman pat with his opinion??

[blackal]

But this thread and many others are testament that they DO leave items, so why take the chance on high value? It’s not the first thread, and won’t be the last.

Well, yes - that is sadly the case. But - nothing to stop someone telling their local delivery depot exactly what they expect in event of non-delivery.

Sometimes it simply cannot be avoided. I placed an Apple order for which you cannot specify a delivery date - and £4,300 worth of boxes got left in my tool store in the back garden. It was there for about a week before I got home.

[Saint-Just]

Where's postman prat with his opinion??

FTFY

[Robsmck]

The last watch I received through the post had this warning for the postman.....20180223_121308.jpg

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[Ferdinand101]

Doesn’t seem like a signature is enough with the modern tech available, a picture to accompany the signature record would stop this sort of thing!

[aldfort]

Thought was a reference to postie not buyer.

It was. I remain confused as to how the postie found out there might be a problem.
For sure if RMSD is not handled through a separate channel at RM then I will stop using it.
When I've used it before as the receiver I've never had my postie deliver the item. It's always come in a different van. If I've been out I've had to take the card to the sorting office with proof of ID and Proof of Address. Clearly RMSD is no longer the service it once was.

[MartynJC (UK)]

Clearly RMSD is no longer the service it once was.

I blame cutbacks. Isn’t it about time RMSD was outsourced - what’s that company that runs prisons, schools, catering. I’m sure they would do a fine job of RMSD. (Just joking btw).

Martyn.

[blackal]

He asked because he had heard about the sellers complaint. But that’s now got me a bit confused as to why that claim wasn’t upheld. Assume it was because they saw the parcel had been delivered and signed for and don’t check with the postman.


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It was. I remain confused as to how the postie found out there might be a problem.
.

See the first quote - Smiffy being the buyer.