Reply With QuoteI'm growing tired of this Veblen theory, the belief that exclusivity justifies the price is rubbish. Anybody who believes this is buying into the Damien Hirst business model: a pickled shark? Are you mad?
Eddie
I never worry about what others think about my time pieces. I don't drink often not ever smoke I used to be into cars but have since calmed down with two children. My only vices now are watches and technology, I have been asked how I afford some pieces. Never if it has been a fake:) All my friends family and work acquaintances know that I appreciate nice things.
I'm growing tired of this Veblen theory, the belief that exclusivity justifies the price is rubbish. Anybody who believes this is buying into the Damien Hirst business model: a pickled shark? Are you mad?
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
I've had the flip side to the fake thing. A customer came in a year or two ago with the roughest looking fake IWC I've ever seen. He must have seen me looking because he asked me if I liked his watch. Obviously, being a customer I said yes it's lovely and he replied 'if you work really hard son, one day you'll be able to get one of these'. That amused me no end because a) I loved the fact he called me son when I was only a couple of years younger, and b) I had been to Harrods not two weeks earlier to pick up my 3717, (the watch his monstrosity was based on). The fool still makes me laugh to this day :)
I'm always wearing my higher end watches to work and no'one has ever commented on them apart from today as it happens. He says "That's a really nice watch, I bet that cost a packet"Originally Posted by Enoch
Was it My Sub-C, Emergency or Pam 025?...
No it was a Seiko 5 military auto on a NATO!!
And on the subject of fakes/copies/replicas. If you are bothered by them then get an Ana Digi Breitling like an Aerospace, B1 or Emergency. Even the Chinese cannot make a half decent copy of them
Well it does seem to work. But it's not even exclusivity as such: After a while, having done the original marketing of specialness/exclusivity, the price itself justifies the ever higher price
Is it mad? Yes. But there is empirical evidence that this sort of madness works. :-(
What hope civilisation, eh?
I buy my watches, clothes and cars for me. I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing a fake watch, but get a similar level of satisfaction from my sub and seiko.
I've been asked a couple of times if my watch is real (always for Rolex, never for anything else) the answer depends on whose asking, someone wearing an interesting watch themselves will get a different answer to a strange youth in an unfamiliar pub.
Understandable that you are frustrated with the frequent Veblen references but it is not about exclusiivity justifying prices. In fact Veblen effect is the reverse of law of demand.
People subject to Veblen effect buy higher priced goods as they are perceived to be luxurious. If the same goods are sold for less, the demand may decrease as they are no longer perceived as being exclusive.
It is like- if Rolex slash their prices by half tomorrow, those who are Rolex fans due to Veblen effect, may not buy them. I think it is somewhat true.
Absolutely agree. This is why I focused on the Aerospace when looking for an aftermarket Breitling.
Ooh, surely a matter of perception?
Have to say that a £99 replica of a Rolex submariner will be worth nowt in 6 months.... A loss of £99
A £5300 genuine sub c (according to threads on sc) will be worth about £4500 in 6 months.... A loss of £800
As always argued, replica buyers are no loss to the genuine manufacturers! Leave them to it!
I think it is somewhat cobblers.
If Rolex or Omega Slashed their prices in half tomorrow I would go at them like a stoner at ice cream as there are a number of great watches they make that I would love to own.
Thats because you are not under Veblen effect!
It only applies to a part of the audience!
I can see the theory but I think Rolex who must be one of the biggest watch brands in the World is the wrong example. I also think it needs to be seen as only a certain demographic too - maybe something like Amex black cards with their huge fees - if they halved the fee or the acceptance criteria so more people had them they would lose exculsivity amongst their original users who (if they could) would move onto a higher fee more exclusive eg White Card even if the service/benefits were the same ?
There would still be overall more Black Cards issued but they top 1% or whatever would have moved on - the Veblen buyers.
Yup. The people who want to spend money for the sake of it buy quartz pap with diamonds on endorsed by footballers. Wrong target.
Yes and no. As a Self-confessed Rolex fan boy, I would think so too. But there are plenty of non believers who think majority of Rolex owners buy a Rolex just to show off their affluence. Used Rolex as an example because for the unitiated, uninformed and the simple,Rolex is the prime example of Veblen. Sorry, eddie for mentioning the V word.
That means they are not V..... goods. If it's only other people who think its a conspicuous display, and not the owners, then that negates the point that Heuertecilla keeps trying to make. Over and over again. Like a stuck record.
My peers know me to be "into" watches and frequently assume my watches are far more expensive than they actually are.
It could be a burden but fortunately I am not concerned with others opinions of me on such matters
Gray
Think you are right!
An interesting answer to the "I can't believe you spent that much on a watch" type of comment might be, "Well, what are your hobbies or interests?"
Golf, expensive cars, vintage wine, art, travel, first editions, trendy or bespoke clothing, shoes, coins, stamps, guitars, audio equipment: I would guess that most people with disposable income have something they spend money on that other people don't understand.
Use it at you peril
Nothing is true, everything is permitted - the Assassins Creed.
I am surprised that you actually associate with people who know about and/or differences with fake & real watches to be honest. I don't think many here have actually run into many WIS in their lifetime off the cuff, randomly, socially or otherwise.
Ach, tell them to piss off ;)
It is a proven phenomenon which applies to luxury watches whether it annoys some or not.
Just like marketing, what the neighbours say, the peer thing etc. affects one.
The questions about it being real/fake would not exist without it.
I just bought a Sinn in Malaysia. Does the above mean that, on my return home, I can tell my wife that it is a fake? That would certainly save me a bit of trouble!
I can't decide if that's a great idea or a terrible one! Best of luck breaking the news.
Tell your wife you've bought a watch that makes you happy.
She will say "Darling, anything that makes you happy makes me happy"
A good point.
People with disposable income will spend it how they see fit, not what others think they should spend it on.
Cheers,
Neil.
If thinking that makes you happy, darling ;-)
Quite agree Neil .
Imo the vast amount of money invested in marketing, hiring psychologist to target it etc., proves otherwise.
Yes and no.
Yes marketing can influence the brand we buy, that's the point of it, it does not, for most, influence what to buy.
Totally agree. Cars are a really stupid way to spend money IMHO - speed cameras, parking fines, cost of fuel, insurance, servicing, tyres, parking damage, vandalism, ageing technology.......yet people spend tens of thousands on metal boxes which look cool and make a nice burbling sound whilst stuck in jams when you can buy a decent secondhand car to run around in for under £2k! I think a decent watch makes more sense! - and I think most people spend more on a car (me included!) because they don't want to look like they couldn't afford a new BMW/Audi/ whatever. Most people just view it differently - that's why I'm into watches and not cars. Flicked through the latest Top Gear Magazine on my mates coffee table last night in about 30 seconds, the only thing that caught my eye were the Christopher Ward watch adverts! (Which looked like tat actually!)
Initially the marketing may have had an overriding influence - but over time that is eroded. Would you buy a luxury car if it had very bad reliability and other issues? Would you buy an expensive watch brand if their watches leaked when rated at high WR, or had a very high return rate for warranty issues. The larger brands may have got there from some strange, and sometimes very clever, marketing practices - but they stay there by delivering - we live in a very fickle world; look at Blackberry and Nokia etc. tastes and demands change - if a brand came out with a guaranteed 0.1 sec per day automatic watch and made sure they were made as well, finished as well and marketed correctly, at the right price to the right audience, then they would succeed - we are not seeing any real innovation, so looks, reputation, performance, image, prestige, history, availability and price etc. will have to dictate what we buy.
It's just a matter of time...
My point being that whatever you choose from the luxury end, all buyers but the proverbial exceptions are into that section because of perceiving the added value created just for that.
We may have heard the V word once too many times but to be honest it's entirely relevant to a discussion of luxury watches. Anyone who thinks the economic concept of something being more attractive because it's more expensive, rather than less, is not relevant to watches is smoking the wrong cigarettes. Where it breaks down is the assumption that the only motive for this is impressing others. Sometimes we likes the precious just because we likes it.
Sorry I don't 'buy' that as, except the proverbial exceptions, you are saying all buyers of luxury goods are idiots.
My question is this. What research have you conducted to prove this 'fact'?
Also some high-end goods are high-end because of their superior performance, hence the price tag, pushing them into the luxury sector they are not necessarily luxury goods because of price alone.
I do concede that some luxury goods services can be expensive for the sake of being expensive.
Last edited by rob-vicar; 18th October 2013 at 11:25.
These are the exact same comments I get whenever wearing my Rolex (never get it with Omega for some reason).
It used to offennd me, now I just rise above it.
At the end of the day, I bought the watch FOR ME. So whatever anyone else thinks is their business.
By the way, anything could be fake (including their mum).
No I am not.
I am simply observing that what we think is very much formed by outside influances, that since we are social animals we dó care about how we are perceived etcetera. and marketing psychologist use that, intent to manipulate us into preceiving the intangible added value which it hás when we perceive it. You can add the V-word in there.
The experience by the OT; the observations about real/fake of image goods; is proof that it is an important thing and as such influences us in whichever way.
Yoú seem to judge that as stupid, I accept it as the way it is; part of human nature, of how we tick.
Last edited by Huertecilla; 18th October 2013 at 12:46.
I find that my friends that wear fake Rolex watches know more about spotting a fake than people who wear real ones. One friend has a website showing the top 10 tells for a fake so when he's the fake market he can get the best one that passes all the "fake tests."
Yes and boy should you need to be alert to it.
Fake watches are less harmfull than fake boobs, fake noses etc.
With that such of fake appearance we are fooling our selective criteria which evolved as succesfull over milennia.
Status symbols such as a luxury watch are the first level of selection.
A fake watch is just faking success like a faux leopard tail would fake hunting skills.
Faking fysical critera goes deeper; fakes DNA.
Scents, feromones are te néxt level deeper and illustrate the issue; we subconsciously select on scent those partners with the most differing immune system, thus giving offspring the widest defense system possible.
Feromones in scents con our system.
As do fake symetries or other selective criteria of the fittest mates.
It is in our very direct personal interest to be able to identify fakes on all the levels.
Fake status/power, fake fysical aptitude, fake defense system; basically fake DNA...
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Please share!
God, I love this thread. Ol' boy Zilla's insights are always instructive.
Here's what my coworker uses. He especially looks for the date bubble and micro etched crystal.
http://www.rongordonwatches.com/how-...rake-rolex.php
While were are at it Stern.God, I love this thread. Ol' boy Zilla's insights are always instructive.
Buying a status item one cannot really afford is in effect not that different from buying a fake; both misrepresentation.
The latter greatly inflaming the former is imo causing a lot of the fake hate.
When you buy quality for yourself you can´t be bothered about fakes. You will not be conned by a fake either because you buy quality thus not fake...
Ditto real top dogs; they don´t need aspirational nor status products and thus can wear a Casio or whatever without a thoúght about the fake-or-not.
Thanks for the link Bernouls.
3. Clear casebacks, Rolex never made these.
There are a few manufacturers of clear casebacks for a lot of makes and if it has a clear caseback does not mean it is a fake. I would have thought it cheaper and easier to manufacture a copy of the original caseback than to make a clear one.
Thanks for that, top dog. Where would TZ-UK be without your input?
One of the points in this list is not correct as far as I know:
In fact, to the best of my knowledge, Rolex did produce gold plated Oyster Precision (manual wind) watches in I think the 50s or 60s. I'm sure there's someone here who can correct or clarify further.2. If the watch is gold plated, it's fake. Rolex never made a gold plated watch.
Also a couple of points are potentially misleading in my humble opinion:
Whilst I am quite certain that the majority of fakes have poor cyclopes and non-holographic 'holograms', it is potentially misleading to make non-qualified statements such as "On counterfeit models the date magnification is more like 1.5 times" or "Counterfeit stickers are not holograms at all". The word "most" should be included in both those statements.4. Date bubble, or "Cyclops" attached to the crystal, positioned over the date. Its purpose is to magnify the tiny aperture and does so at 2.5 times magnification On counterfeit models the date magnification is more like 1.5 times.
[...]
6. The hologram Sticker on Genuine Rolex models are a Hologram-encoded (3-dimensional) sticker on the case back. Counterfeit stickers are not holograms at all, but rather simply a repetitious "Rolex" pattern, which does not change in appearance when viewed from different angles.
This thread is getting more and more intersting...
I think what you say can be true at times but false lot more.
There are people who save up or make sacrifices or both to buy something they cant otherwise afford. That is called passion.May not always be done to impress others or misrepresent their financial standing.
I have done that when I started out and believe me I had zero interest in what others thought of my purchases even then as I do now. It is somewhat unfair and frankly tiresome when there are repeated assertions along this line.
It is somewhat of a dishonest position to take.
Nobody can know why someone buys what they buy other than the person buying. To ascribe motivations like this to their purchase is doing them a disservice and doesnt serve any purpose. These generalisations are intellectually and morally dishonest.
Would replace interesting with predictable,tiresome and repititive.
Have to resist the impulse to respond to the usual culprits.
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