Seiko - Are they missing a trick?

[ajpac]

Take a look at the Seiko Presage range (mechanical) at Ernest Jones. Bought one myself after seeing pictures on another site. Reasonably priced, got a discount suited me.

[Daddelvirks]

Ah, but that's exactly the kind of defensive negativity I feared (and possibly, inverted snobbery - I own two Breitlings, because I love the way they look, not because they've Breitling on the dial, but I also own a number of Seikos - No GS, I admit, but my 6138-3002 is a big favourite and cost me £125!)

No-one's questioning (at least I wasn't) the QUALITY of Seiko's products, merely questioning whether they actually undermine their message to the market by insisting on sticking the same brand name on all things.

As someone mentioned earlier, the fact that they sell Lorus watches, which seem to compete directly with their own cheaper watches, suggests they don't have a coherent approach at all.

The camera analogy works better than the car one, because you CAN spend £1000s on a top-end Nikon or Canon DSLR, but £50 on a pocket camera and no-one really believes that the cheap cameras undermine the DSLRs.

BUT, there are tangible differences in the RESULTS from a £50 camera and a £3000 one - OK, you might not see it in your holiday/party 5x3s or you 800x600 Facebook images (especially after distorting them with that daft software everyone loves), but most people will quickly notice the difference on a 17"+ monitor or in a magazine. The same isn't true of a simple 3 handed watch.

Maybe Seiko are happy to sell their high-end watches ONLY to the informed and make all their money from volume sales of cheaper ones.

M

I think this is the case, and we, as WIS are worrying to much about Seiko and their higher end products not selling to a bigger public.
Their main market will always be in the lower/middle end of the market, their choice is enormous and everybody knows about Seiko, just like Rolex in the higher end market.

The fact they produce the same quality watches as Rolex/Breitling is interesting for those who love a watch for what it is, and are not concerned about the name on the dial.

I like some Breitling models as well, and I'm not accusing you or all the other Breitling wearers of buying because of the name on the dial, but there are loads who do.

But this is an old story that comes up every time, not wanting to invest in an expensive Seiko, because it says Seiko on the dial.

Daddel.

[GlennO]

Maybe Seiko are happy to sell their high-end watches ONLY to the informed and make all their money from volume sales of cheaper ones.

Correct. Grand Seiko and Credor are simply low volume showcase lines.

[Terryjames]

All the talk about resale values i can`t get my head round.I have never bought a watch with that in mind.I just buy what i fancy.
Been through the Rolex and the omega faze and one of my favourite watches i bought of the sc here for less than a ton and have wore it now for a couple of weeks and its keeping time to well within cosc.Seiko skx007j I`ll say no more.

[stix]

I agree that for the GS line of watches, they should remove Seiko and replace it with Grand Seiko. It would look much better and set it apart from the mainstream. I had an SARB035 for 5 years and although the quality and costs were amazing, when you look at a GS, there is no comparison really, apart from the blasted name.

I shall put my money where my mouth is once I stop being unemployed on such a frequent basis

[barryw]

All the talk about resale values i can`t get my head round.I have never bought a watch with that in mind.I just buy what i fancy.
Been through the Rolex and the omega faze and one of my favourite watches i bought of the sc here for less than a ton and have wore it now for a couple of weeks and its keeping time to well within cosc.Seiko skx007j I`ll say no more.

I agree totally,i purchase the watch to be a keeper and the day i get my GS it's going nowhere!

[ralphy]

From a marketing POV I think the fact that Seiko make soooooo many inexpensive models that they have painted themselves into a corner: one that wouldn’t allow them to differentiate between their inexpensive and mid-range* offerings.

*To a degree, this is dependent on what the price difference was between the two.
R

Really?
So can you explain how the same doesn't apply to Rolex and their £50K Platinum Daytona – it is after all 6-7x the price of their cheap version, and they both utilise the same mass-produced movement?.

Yes, really.

Let me explain for you: Rolex do not make a ‘cheap' watch - by any form of general agreement as to what ‘cheap’ is. All Rolexes would be regarded as expensive watches by the vast majority of watch-buyers, whereas the same people would likely regard a Seiko watch as inexpensive - and for good reason: because the vast majority of Seiko watches are inexpensive.

Most watch-buyers will have a personal perception of the name of the manufacturer on the dial and that perception will form part of their buying criteria. I would imagine that most people peering into a high-street jewellers would not be surprised to see a £5-10k price tag on a Rolex: would the same price tag on a Seiko illicit the same reaction? I rather doubt it.

R

[Daddelvirks]

Yes, really.

Let me explain for you: Rolex do not make a ‘cheap' watch - by any form of general agreement as to what ‘cheap’ is. All Rolexes would be regarded as expensive watches by the vast majority of watch-buyers, whereas the same people would likely regard a Seiko watch as inexpensive - and for good reason: because the vast majority of Seiko watches are inexpensive.

Most watch-buyers will have a personal perception of the name of the manufacturer on the dial and that perception will form part of their buying criteria. I would imagine that most people peering into a high-street jewellers would not be surprised to see a £5-10k price tag on a Rolex: would the same price tag on a Seiko illicit the same reaction? I rather doubt it.

R

That's how I would have put it, if English had been my first language.

Cheers,

Daddel.

[ralphy]

That's how I would have put it, if English had been my first language.

Cheers,

Daddel.

I think you put your point well and your command of English is fine.

Like you, I am favourable towards Seiko: IMO they make a good product and I own/have owned a number of their watches. But Seiko are not generally regarded by the vast majority of watch-buyers as a high end/expensive/prestige player in the watch market and so they are at a disadvantage in that sector. It’s neither right nor wrong, it's just how it is.

R

[Seamaster73]

I think you put your point well and your command of English is fine. Like you, I am favourable towards Seiko: IMO they make a good product and I own/have owned a number of their watches. But Seiko are not generally regarded by the vast majority of watch-buyers as a high end/expensive/prestige player in the watch market and so they are at a disadvantage in that sector. It’s neither right nor wrong, it's just how it is.

When we (WISs) buy a watch, heritage and quality weigh heavy in the decision. Seiko has both in spades (e.g. SKX007J). When the great unwashed buy a watch, they're just buying a brand.

[barryw]

When I'm talking or should that be boring my non WiS friends, and we are talking about high end watches, the first brand that pops up from a non enthusiast is Rolex.
When i start to explain with my very limited knowledge of the higher specialist companies such as AP,PP etc... And mention GS they are genuinely interested, but knew nothing of them.
It's so sad that most of the nation think that Rolex is the be all and end all,i think they've been brainwashed it's so frustrating.
This is coming from someone who has owned, and does like some of the Rolex brand,so I'm no hater!

[Rano85]

When I'm talking or should that be boring my non WiS friends, and we are talking about high end watches, the first brand that pops up from a non enthusiast is Rolex.
When i start to explain with my very limited knowledge of the higher specialist companies such as AP,PP etc... And mention GS they are genuinely interested, but knew nothing of them.
It's so sad that most of the nation think that Rolex is the be all and end all,i think they've been brainwashed it's so frustrating.
This is coming from someone who has owned, and does like some of the Rolex brand,so I'm no hater!

Similar. I have created a small band of budding new watch enthusiasts, and when I got onto the subject of how Japan make excellent watches, and that Seiko have a high end line called "Grand Seiko" that rivalled Rolex in quality, they were extremely surprised, but also extremely interested. The first thing they did was go back to their desks and google it, then start emailing pictures of ones they liked.

But, and here is the problem that this thread is covering, none of them would buy one, and all would prefer to spend the money on something Swiss rather than "just a Seiko".

It might have been in Seiko's interest, at least for the non-Japanese market to have called the Grand Seiko line something completely different.

[bedlam]

The camera analogy works better than the car one, because you CAN spend £1000s on a top-end Nikon or Canon DSLR, but £50 on a pocket camera and no-one really believes that the cheap cameras undermine the DSLRs.

BUT, there are tangible differences in the RESULTS from a £50 camera and a £3000 one - OK, you might not see it in your holiday/party 5x3s or you 800x600 Facebook images (especially after distorting them with that daft software everyone loves), but most people will quickly notice the difference on a 17"+ monitor or in a magazine. The same isn't true of a simple 3 handed watch.

Maybe Seiko are happy to sell their high-end watches ONLY to the informed and make all their money from volume sales of cheaper ones.

You don't have to look at all hard to see the very tangible differences between my wife's Seiko 5 SNK and my MM300. Wearing them will further underline the differences and their comparative timekeeping stability across varying levels of activity leaves little doubt. Even a naive buyer would soon be clear about the superiority of one over the other and expect that a significant price difference will exist between them. There would additionally be no reason why the cheaper watch would cast any doubt on the quality of the other.

[barryw]

You don't have to look at all hard to see the very tangible differences between my wife's Seiko 5 SNK and my MM300. Wearing them will further underline the differences and their comparative timekeeping stability across varying levels of activity leaves little doubt. Even a naive buyer would soon be clear about the superiority of one over the other and expect that a significant price difference will exist between them. There would additionally be no reason why the cheaper watch would cast any doubt on the quality of the other.

God that MM does look good!
Good to see it in the environment it was designed for :-)
Thanks.

[PJ S]

Yes, really.

Let me explain for you: Rolex do not make a ‘cheap' watch - by any form of general agreement as to what ‘cheap’ is. All Rolexes would be regarded as expensive watches by the vast majority of watch-buyers, whereas the same people would likely regard a Seiko watch as inexpensive - and for good reason: because the vast majority of Seiko watches are inexpensive.

Most watch-buyers will have a personal perception of the name of the manufacturer on the dial and that perception will form part of their buying criteria. I would imagine that most people peering into a high-street jewellers would not be surprised to see a £5-10k price tag on a Rolex: would the same price tag on a Seiko illicit the same reaction? I rather doubt it.

I fully understand the perception aspect – that's what pretty much underpins the whole of the luxury watch market, but my point arose from your impression that Seiko have painted themselves into a corner because they emblazon their watches (across the whole price spectrum) with their name on it.
If you actually read that, and let it sink in for a bit, you'd realise just how ludicrous that sounds – how dare they proudly put their name on a few thousand watches which are hand assembled?

The simple fact is that you're writing off Seiko selling more Grand Seiko, at a time when they're not even actively marketing the GS line, mainly because there's not enough product to go round as is, let alone when demand rises in line with the marketing effort.
Grand Seikos are bought by buyers who know what they are looking for in a watch, not by people who rely on the marketing dept telling them that they should.

I can't be unique in comprehending this, and not seeing a problem, but for the life of me, I can't fathom out how some of you can't seem to see beyond the end of your own nose! It's utterly baffling, especially as many of you are more WIS than I'll ever be.

Maybe it's high time to finally just accept Seiko knows what it's doing, and will do what it does. That they don't need Grand Seiko to be instantly recognisable, in order to be a success. That you stop projecting Swiss ideology/dogma onto them, and embrace the fact they're a very different company from the Swiss/German/French ones, with a very different set of principles as a result.

[barryw]

You've put it a lot better than i ever could!

[jwg663]

Seiko aren't a WIS-oriented company, yet there seems to be an expectation that they should be. There's a point where their current product & the WIS market meets, but I think that's coincidence, rather than planning. If they were WIS-oriented, wouldn't they be making re-issues of their iconic 1960s & 1970s divers' watches, rather than Eddie & Dagaz, for example?

They're in the business of selling watches to the mainstream. They appear to do it rather well, on a worldwide basis. They've even got a sub-brand, Lorus, (perhaps more than one - J Springs?) for those that can't afford the £30 or £50 or so on a Seiko 5.

They're all "in-house" too, aren't they?

[Mitch]

A lot of people are basically in denial about why they are prepared to spend, what to the general public would be, a huge price for a particular watch.

On here members will mainly insist they are paying for the engineering, the robustness, the look, the accuracy, the finishing etc and they are not paying for the image, that is not important to them.

Well really it is largely fantasy when it comes to the volume 'luxury' brands.

Yes you do have to pay for better engineering, materials and finishing, these things cost a manufacturer and he want his money back and more. It is the same with branding, manufacturers in certain brands spend huge amounts on marketing.......... free watches to celebs, sponsoring, at huge expense, high profile events designed to create a certain image for the brand etc etc. They spend a heck of a lot less on marketing their engineering. That is for a very good reason, brand is what mainly sells, not engineering.

There is no doubt that certain less marketed and therefore less well regarded brands produce watches of the same overall quality of other more expensive brands. Just like cars, buy a Skoda rather than a VW and you get it cheaper, for what is often the same car apart from the branding and minor cosmetics.

Far more is spent on marketing VWs than Skoda's and the manufacturer wants his money back and a lot more and it is the purchaser who pays. They are paying purely for the brand and image.

It is the same with watches, though branding pushes up the price differential way more the VW/Skoda example.

Depends how you want to feel about your purchase, do you derive satisfaction from the image and brand and are prepared to pay large sums, over and above the cost of the engineering, just for that? Or would you prefer to have your satisfaction delivered by a similarly engineered watch that is less marketed and has less of a public image but is cheaper because you are not now paying for this over and above the engineering cost?

You can see the effect of marketing and image directly on this forum. Post a thread on here about watches of certain well marketed brands and you will have a significant number of responses, even though that exact watch may have been posted about hundreds of times before.

Post about watches with less cache but which have been rarely or never seen here, often with fairly interesting or unique features and you will often struggle to elicit more than a handful of replies.

When you consider that this is supposedly a forum about the engineering, look, features and interesting facts about watches and not about branding and image, you would feel that the reply ratio should be reversed. It is just a demonstration, that though lots here identify themselves as WIS, the reality is brand and image driven, even here.

That would be no surprise to manufacturers of course, they don't spend all that money on a guess about the human psyche!





Mitch

[Daddelvirks]

A lot of people are basically in denial about why they are prepared to spend, what to the general public would be, a huge price for a particular watch.

On here members will mainly insist they are paying for the engineering, the robustness, the look, the accuracy, the finishing etc and they are not paying for the image, that is not important to them.

Well really it is largely fantasy when it comes to the volume 'luxury' brands.

Yes you do have to pay for better engineering, materials and finishing, these things cost a manufacturer and he want his money back and more. It is the same with branding, manufacturers in certain brands spend huge amounts on marketing.......... free watches to celebs, sponsoring, at huge expense, high profile events designed to create a certain image for the brand etc etc. They spend a heck of a lot less on marketing their engineering. That is for a very good reason, brand is what mainly sells, not engineering.

There is no doubt that certain less marketed and therefore less well regarded brands produce watches of the same overall quality of other more expensive brands. Just like cars, buy a Skoda rather than a VW and you get it cheaper, for what is often the same car apart from the branding and minor cosmetics.

Far more is spent on marketing VWs than Skoda's and the manufacturer wants his money back and a lot more and it is the purchaser who pays. They are paying purely for the brand and image.

It is the same with watches, though branding pushes up the price differential way more the VW/Skoda example.

Depends how you want to feel about your purchase, do you derive satisfaction from the image and brand and are prepared to pay large sums, over and above the cost of the engineering, just for that? Or would you prefer to have your satisfaction delivered by a similarly engineered watch that is less marketed and has less of a public image but is cheaper because you are not now paying for this over and above the engineering cost?

You can see the effect of marketing and image directly on this forum. Post a thread on here about watches of certain well marketed brands and you will have a significant number of responses, even though that exact watch may have been posted about hundreds of times before.

Post about watches with less cache but which have been rarely or never seen here, often with fairly interesting or unique features and you will often struggle to elicit more than a handful of replies.

When you consider that this is supposedly a forum about the engineering, look, features and interesting facts about watches and not about branding and image, you would feel that the reply ratio should be reversed. It is just a demonstration, that though lots here identify themselves as WIS, the reality is brand and image driven, even here.

That would be no surprise to manufacturers of course, they don't spend all that money on a guess about the human psyche!





Mitch

There's a lot of truth in that.

Problem is, it takes a big man to admit it............

Daddel.

[barryw]

There is some great points and discussions going on here, just glad it hasn't ended up a slanging match as usual between two brands.
Thanks guys :-)

[forpetesake]

You can see the effect of marketing and image directly on this forum. Post a thread on here about watches of certain well marketed brands and you will have a significant number of responses, even though that exact watch may have been posted about hundreds of times before.

Post about watches with less cache but which have been rarely or never seen here, often with fairly interesting or unique features and you will often struggle to elicit more than a handful of replies.

When you consider that this is supposedly a forum about the engineering, look, features and interesting facts about watches and not about branding and image, you would feel that the reply ratio should be reversed. It is just a demonstration, that though lots here identify themselves as WIS, the reality is brand and image driven, even here.

That would be no surprise to manufacturers of course, they don't spend all that money on a guess about the human psyche!





Mitch

Talking of Post Counts - I wonder what can be inferred from the total of Watch Talk versus Sales Corner.

[Seamaster73]

There is some great points and discussions going on here, just glad it hasn't ended up a slanging match as usual between two brands.
Thanks guys :-)

Quick! To the roof, Chief O' Hara! Flash the Cilla-signal!

[2kilo]

Grand Seikos are bought by buyers who know what they are looking for in a watch, not by people who rely on the marketing dept telling them that they should...

i.e. Seiko have "painted themselves into a corner" with the "general public" as inexpensive, not premium. While only people "in the know" are likely to purchase GS Seiko's…? Sorry I don't know why you are giving Ralphy [and the forum population] a hard time when your logic leads to the same "ludicrous" conclusion…?

[barryw]

Quick! To the roof, Chief O' Hara! Flash the Cilla-signal!

[Coot]

This arrived today and the quality is stunning from the various styles of polishing on the case to the amount of depth to the dial.
In the flesh the colours pic up the light in different ways and the whole thing is a joy to look at and touch.

I have a couple of Seiko 5 SNK-something or others that are well made and little gems for the money.
Saying that I never wear them and they sit in the box doing nothing.

Also got an SARB035 thats another level up. Again superbly well made and probably as accurate as anything out there.

Dont think I've seen a Grand Seiko in the flesh but I can imagine the quality is a step up again.

I think joe average in the street would think the 5's are £50 ( it was, give or take a fiver ), the 035 maybe £100 ( double that and a bit in real life ) and maybe the Ananta £250 ( say £2k new ) as it "looks expensive" ( ie its shiny and colourful ).

If the SARB035 had Omega or Rolex on it then I'm sure people would think it cost 2-3K and if the SAEH005 had Breitling or Tag on it ( think that covers all the brands of "posh" watches people know ) then the man on the street would think 4K or so.

They could drop the SEIKO from the Ananta, but then its "Oh, its an Ananta, Seiko make them... ) and I dont think its the easiest thing to create a new higher end brand name with no history and pedigree of its own when Seiko have lots of that already.

Maybe gradually position Seiko as the Halo brand in peoples minds and come up with another name on the lower end.

Who knows, I'm not in marketing but if I was I'd make an advert where I'm stood naked on the top of a pyramid and 1,000 naked temptresses holding Jaffa cakes ( I'm wearing a watch or they all are, or not, I dont care at this stage ) are calling my name.

[Daveya.]

I see great Seikos in the sc but pretty naff ones on the high street. Seiko do themselves no favours with the UK range in stores here, but they are a big business and must be making money.

IMHO the Eco drive Citizens are better lookers and even better vfm over here.

[PJ S]

i.e. Seiko have "painted themselves into a corner" with the "general public" as inexpensive, not premium. While only people "in the know" are likely to purchase GS Seiko's…? Sorry I don't know why you are giving Ralphy [and the forum population] a hard time when your logic leads to the same "ludicrous" conclusion…?

The general public are not who Seiko are targeting with the Grand Seiko, or even the outgoing Ananta range – the whole reason Grand Seiko was released to select distributors worldwide is resultant from them knowing a number of the domestic sales were being (still are) exported around the world.
The typical buyer of a Grand Seiko is unlikely to be the same as the bloke that walks into a jewellers and asks for Omega/Rolex/Breitling/Tag Heuer, where brand recognition and price are the main criteria.

Since Seiko are not interested in this type of buyer (they would be if GS sales were very slow after a big ad campaign) at present, then they've not painted themselves anywhere.
If they really had to, Seiko could advertise and make sales of the GS line without any trouble – the brand name is one people already know for reliability and longevity, so making the connection with higher quality would not be all that difficult.
But since Seiko are not struggling to sell what they produce, and are aiming to make more to satisfy increasing demand, the whole premise of this discussion is akin to a house built on foundations made of sand.

I struggle to comprehend how many on here, who are without any stretch of the imagination, a number of rungs above the general public in horological matters, seem to think Seiko haven't a clue when it comes to marketing!
They haven't even started, and in all likelihood never will, because they're not chasing the casual buyer who doesn't know a crown from a bezel, and is only interested in what credibility the watch infers amongst peers.

[barryw]

I see great Seikos in the sc but pretty naff ones on the high street. Seiko do themselves no favours with the UK range in stores here, but they are a big business and must be making money.

IMHO the Eco drive Citizens are better lookers and even better vfm over here.

I saw a lovely vintage style Citizen in the jewellers window today, one thing that spoiled it totally was the words ecodrive!
Why?
It was supposed to be vintage.

[Coot]

The general public are not who Seiko are targeting with the Grand Seiko, or even the outgoing Ananta range – the whole reason Grand Seiko was released to select distributors worldwide is resultant from them knowing a number of the domestic sales were being (still are) exported around the world.
The typical buyer of a Grand Seiko is unlikely to be the same as the bloke that walks into a jewellers and asks for Omega/Rolex/Breitling/Tag Heuer, where brand recognition and price are the main criteria.

I think thats what I was getting at in a roundabout way, Seiko make watches and dont need a hand in shifting them with whatever name on.
They also make some nicer watches for the afflicted ;)

[Captainhowdy]

I fully understand the perception aspect – that's what pretty much underpins the whole of the luxury watch market, but my point arose from your impression that Seiko have painted themselves into a corner because they emblazon their watches (across the whole price spectrum) with their name on it.
If you actually read that, and let it sink in for a bit, you'd realise just how ludicrous that sounds – how dare they proudly put their name on a few thousand watches which are hand assembled?

The simple fact is that you're writing off Seiko selling more Grand Seiko, at a time when they're not even actively marketing the GS line, mainly because there's not enough product to go round as is, let alone when demand rises in line with the marketing effort.
Grand Seikos are bought by buyers who know what they are looking for in a watch, not by people who rely on the marketing dept telling them that they should.

I can't be unique in comprehending this, and not seeing a problem, but for the life of me, I can't fathom out how some of you can't seem to see beyond the end of your own nose! It's utterly baffling, especially as many of you are more WIS than I'll ever be.

Maybe it's high time to finally just accept Seiko knows what it's doing, and will do what it does. That they don't need Grand Seiko to be instantly recognisable, in order to be a success. That you stop projecting Swiss ideology/dogma onto them, and embrace the fact they're a very different company from the Swiss/German/French ones, with a very different set of principles as a result.

I will disagree with this point, we know for a fact that more GS are bought and sold in Japan, than the rest of the world, and I would argue that the same set of principles and thought processes are going on when choosing a JDM GS in Tokyo as someone in London buying a Rolex. I don't think the Japanese guy buying a GS will know little more about his watch other than he will be comfortable in the knowledge that his wedge has bought him a certain level of quality and exclusivity, the same holds true for a European buying a Rolex over here.

[PJ S]

Perhaps Paul, but we're discussing Seiko in the context of the UK specifically, if not the Western Hemisphere in general.
What you say may be true in some or all aspects, but it's not what this discussion is actually about.

I don't think there's anything more I can say without repeating myself.
Suffice it to say, Seiko marches to the beat of a different drum, and whilst some of us accept that as the right thing to be doing, others think it's wrong – time will tell which group was correct in their perception.

[Daddelvirks]

At least there's something for everyone at Seiko, with such a broad spectrum covered, everybody's happy. (well, all but one or two........).

Take your pick and enjoy, in whatever pricerange.

Daddel.

[jrpippen]

We do have a big brand culture here in the uk. Even more in Italy etc. I have struggled for a few years to take the plunge into some higher end "seiko". I haven't been disappointed, but your not wearing a Rolex and that's an issue if you want people to know you have a good watch.

[GrandS]

We do have a big brand culture here in the uk. Even more in Italy etc. I have struggled for a few years to take the plunge into some higher end "seiko". I haven't been disappointed, but your not wearing a Rolex and that's an issue if you want people to know you have a good watch.

Yes, it's perfect if you would rather not have all and sundry know that you are wearing an expensive watch.

[cricketer]

It all depends on having a certain name on the dial, if you are worried about your image or resale, stay away.

I couldn't give a toss, as long as I know I have some excellent trustworthy technology inside.

I'd much rather have a The Citizen Chronomaster or GS quartz on my wrist than a Breitling with some outdated ETA technology costing double the price.

But that's just me.

Daddel.

Wise words

cheers
Alan

[tertius]

Interesting when you look at the statistics, albeit 6 months out of date

http://www.statisticbrain.com/wrist-...ry-statistics/

Am I misreading those stats?

Total annual watch sales: twelve hundred million, or 1.2 billion!

Market Share of Patek Philippe: 3% = 36 million watches

Hmm ...

[andrew]

Wise words

cheers
Alan

Be nice if they were actually available to buy in the shops though wouldn't it? As it is, because neither (Grand) Seiko nor (The) Citizen can be bothered to release their Omega-bashing watches, I can't be bothered to buy 'em ;).

[Daveya.]

Am I misreading those stats?

Total annual watch sales: twelve hundred million, or 1.2 billion!

Market Share of Patek Philippe: 3% = 36 million watches

Hmm ...

It might mean market share of the high end, not total market

[snowman]

Just catching up on this thread.

I guess another factor that comes into play is the non-availability of Grand Seikos generally in the UK (EU?).

If you could walk into a jewellers and examine a GS, you might well come out with one, deciding that it is indeed better than the "Breitling, costing twice the amount", but as you can't it's a huge leap of faith to trust a grand or two based on the slightly fevered posts of a few enthusiasts on a web forum (even in the unlikely event that you come across the posts).

Again it comes down to whether Seiko even care about selling GS watches outside Japan and it seems, on the whole, they don't.

M

[Tokyo Tokei]

Lexus doesn't exist in Japan

I can assure you that it does. What you may be thinking of is that a while back, some models sold as Toyotas in Japan were indeed branded as Lexus overseas. The Toyota Harrier, for example, was named the Lexus RX outside Japan. It's now a Lexus here too.

Seiko has a bunch of brands, differentiated at the low end ( Alba, etc ) and the high end ( GS, Credor ). They seem to be doing alright on the whole.

Paul

[Itsguy]

I think that if Seiko rebranded GS just for the benefit of a western audience who have preconceptions that Seiko is a cheap brand, they would constantly be the subject of threads (and real world conversations) revealing the 'shocking truth' that the expensive watch you bought is really 'just a Seiko'. People would claim it was some kind of marketing scam and it could actually harm their reputation. Better to be honest about it, and try to change perceptions of the brand.

That said, if they really want to change people's perception, they would have to invest much more heavily in advertising, which currently the numbers won't justify. It's an up hill struggle, as a great many debates on this forum have shown. I like and own the brand, but I can still understand that for some people a GS is like writing Smart Car on an Aston Martin. It's more likely to change your perception of the car than the brand.

[barryw]

Just catching up on this thread.

I guess another factor that comes into play is the non-availability of Grand Seikos generally in the UK (EU?).

If you could walk into a jewellers and examine a GS, you might well come out with one, deciding that it is indeed better than the "Breitling, costing twice the amount", but as you can't it's a huge leap of faith to trust a grand or two based on the slightly fevered posts of a few enthusiasts on a web forum (even in the unlikely event that you come across the posts).

Again it comes down to whether Seiko even care about selling GS watches outside Japan and it seems, on the whole, they don't.

M

The issue i have with Grand Seiko availability is, i think they would need an upmarket outlet to display them.
As it is where i live in Cumbria, we only have Ernest jones and Samuels that stock the brand, i wouldn't buy a lesser model from these guys nevermind a GS!

[Seamaster73]

Part of the problem in the UK is the godawful selection of quartz Seikos selected for sale here.

There's not a single Seiko on display in the window of any British AD that I would consider buying.

[markrlondon]

Again it comes down to whether Seiko even care about selling GS watches outside Japan and it seems, on the whole, they don't.

I am pretty sure they do care, according to interviews with Seiko's CEO and marketing director that I've read. (Sorry, don't have linked handy right now).

It's just that they are determined to expand at their own speed and in their own way. They are not in a hurry but they have complete confidence that they will succeed in their goals in due course. I've seen nothing that makes me think that they are wrong.

[tertius]

I think that if Seiko rebranded GS just for the benefit of a western audience who have preconceptions that Seiko is a cheap brand, they would constantly be the subject of threads (and real world conversations) revealing the 'shocking truth' that the expensive watch you bought is really 'just a Seiko'. People would claim it was some kind of marketing scam and it could actually harm their reputation. Better to be honest about it, and try to change perceptions of the brand.

That said, if they really want to change people's perception, they would have to invest much more heavily in advertising, which currently the numbers won't justify. It's an up hill struggle, as a great many debates on this forum have shown. I like and own the brand, but I can still understand that for some people a GS is like writing Smart Car on an Aston Martin. It's more likely to change your perception of the car than the brand.

I agree with this, creating a new, non-Seiko brand would likely backfire. Plus as others have said they are rightly proud of the Seiko name, and I admire their approach.

The one thing I would change is the font they use for "GS" and "Grand Seiko", just too fussy for my liking.

[GrandS]

The one thing I would change is the font they use for "GS" and "Grand Seiko", just too fussy for my liking.

Yes, the font. The first time I saw it I had that same thought. What were they thinking... These days I am used to it and I like it. It is different in an in your face kind of way that I really like. I hope they keep the font. From 1963:



From my own:

[barryw]

I absolutely love the font on the Grand Seiko's, i think it really enhances the watch Imo.