I've taken claims to small claims twice myself and helped my wife with 2 more. In none of those cases did we involve legal advisors and we won each and every time - in one of my cases against a major supermarket's legal department. Just make sure you've got everything that can possibly be asked for, cross reference everything, make sure you provide everything to the defendant as well. It was highly amusing to watch 2 dentists, both with post graduate degrees and association memberships coming out of their ears, arguing about the meaning of the word "provide". Even funnier was that the guy my wife was suing only had to do that because he provided the court with a contract that not only had she never seen, it wasn't even available at the time he claimed to have given it to her. But, because he introduced it and she didn't get a chance to say that she could prove it wasn't in existence at the time she started working for him (it referenced changes to the NHS contract that took place 18 months later!), the judge ruled on the basis of the contract's wording. Moral of the story? Be honest and provide only factual information that you can fully support, if not it could well backfire on you.Originally Posted by Dave O'Sullivan
Even if he turns up with a legal rep, the judge will look at the case on it's merits. It's not a criminal case where things have to be proved beyond doubt, it's civil and the burden of proof is simply balance of probability - ie the judge believes you 51% of the time and him 49% of the time and you win.
The facts appear to be very straightforward. Make sure everything's documented, put it into a nice indexed bundle for the judge and refer to it as often as possible using page numbers.
My guy feeling is that you'll need to watch out for him trying to misrepresent the content of your early conversations in person.
Redacted by author, not relevant to thread.
Last edited by G10 for Men; 26th July 2014 at 18:41. Reason: Sausage fingers.
Surely the key point to remember here is that situations can and do change. If the situation changes such that seeing it through to the "finish" is no longer warranted, then it is surely only right and proper to ask the police to terminate their efforts so as not to waste resources.
If the police involvement, even if it did not result in the finish that the police would hope for, got a satisfactory resolution then surely this justified the police's involvement. The police do exist to serve the public, surely. ;-)
You will note that I underlined three phrases in the two paragraphs above. I did this because they all refer to the "finish", the desired end point, the outcome, the goal, or the resolution. But they refer to it from two different perspectives and can have two different detailed meanings. Is now clear to me that expectations and desired resolutions may differ between the police and the public. The police have a certain expectation about what the end point should be (once they are brought into a case) whereas the public may well have a different, possibly non-criminal/non-judicial, desired end point or resolution. It is this entirely natural (as things stand) difference in outlook and expectations that leads to the friction demonstrated between police and non-police in this thread. Unless and until the police and the public can have a natural (not enforced) shared goal and outlook in matters like this, this friction will continue and the police will continue to be perceived badly in cases like this.
The simple truth is that the police are the state mandated law enforcement agency and are taxpayer funded to this end, so it is surely natural that people should expect to receive assistance from the police in righting the wrong where a criminal act may have occurred, and yet it is also equally natural for people to not want the police to continue to waste their time (as the complainant would see it) if the complainant's goal (which, as I have observed, is quite understandably not necessarily the same same as the police's goal) has been attained. Righting the wrong from the point of view of the complainant does not necessarily mean that the issue has to be seen to the bitter end by the police.
But, as I also said before, if the police feel that there is still a reasonable chance of a conviction or similar outcome then, as I understand it, nothing prevents them from continuing the investigation anyway. Their time need not have been wasted at all, from their perspective and outlook.
Hi Police will be a waste of time, as they will push as being civil matter as CPS wont be able to prove a crime so all charges if any brought will be dropped, the best route is small claims court, as he probably will not turn up, he will have plenty notice to pay in full before the court date, and will be official with the courts nice stamp on it, then if in the event he does not turn up you will be awarded the the money plus court costs.
google small claims court takes 10 minutes to do at a cost of £70 he will have a letter with in a week.
once you have a judgement not only a CCJ against his name, as its over £500 you can send to high court (Marsdens ) at a cost of £85 which they will recover the full amount plus there costs from is house goods to value of, can take cars, if he has no car or goods of value to the full amount but if he works you can apply for a detachment of earnings or get a solicitor to do it.
but you will need the judgement first. i worked for the high court enforcement and it never recovered money if they was pot less with no job or car on benefits. But a car was usually the best asset to get paid.
I had a fellow member got screwed over with a car from a garage, as the parts they fitted when they sold the knacked the car with a cost of £1200, he went down the route i suggested he got is money back from the garage.
If you're lucky he won't have the cheek to turn up and you'll win by default, happened to someone I know.
You have a number of e-mails from him documenting the situation so he won't have a leg to stand on. From what you've said he seems to know he's wrong but just doesn't want to or can't reimburse you.
If he loses and doesn't pay you back his credit will be screwed (will it affect his credit even if he pays immediately?)
As I recall, if he pays the judgment in full before the time limit is up (30 days as I recall) then he can apply to have the judgment removed from the register (and it will then in turn be removed from their records by credit reference agencies). Thus it will not affect his credit if he can do that.
Why it appear on his record anyway? Don't that only happen, if he wins didn't pay and THEN you have to get a CCJ to enforce payment?
A CCJ (County Court Judgment) is registered with a monopoly registry provider. The credit reference agencies get their CCJ information from this registry provider. The CCJ is added to the register almost as soon as it is issued.
A CCJ in favour of the claimant is (usually) in effect an order for the defendant to pay. If the defendant does not pay within the stated time limit then no further judgment is needed for the claimant to begin various recovery procedures. As I recall some of the recovery procedures might involve further court action or authorisation but no new judgment is needed.
Just the way it was worded and with the quotation marks made it seem dismissive of actual battered women whether they withdraw complaints or not. Your mate's wife did something which could get her in trouble as making false allegations is illegal, bad for your mate and for actual battered women everywhere.
Fair enough if that's what you meant, just giving you a heads up of how it was coming across.
And kid or not, if that was my partner I would grab the baby and head for the hills for the good of the baby as well as for myself! Hope everything goes well for him.
Thanks he needs all the best wishes he can get.
To be fair tho I think you are the only one to have misunderstood my post, I bracketed the words "battered woman" as in the same sentence I go on to say she wasn't really a battered woman, as she said as much herself in a text, not to mention he was the one with scratches all over his back...but yeah this is exactly what happens with false claims, the police have to take all cases seriously, so the innocent ones find it next to impossible to defend against these types of crimes, without meaning to overstate the point, as soon as battered woman get mentioned it puts everyone on the defensive,this being a case in point.
Last edited by jegger; 28th July 2014 at 22:19.
Christ this has gone off topic.
Dave - any updates?
Hi, thanks for asking.
I have decided to let the police do their stuff before proceeding with court action. They phoned me a couple of weeks ago to ask if the situation was resolved. I told them it hadn't so they were going to pull him in for a statement.
Heard nothing since so I'll chase them up.
just read this thread cant belive its gone on this long just on here, you have patients of a saint sir i would have sent the unofficial debt collectors long before that and after using small claims courts myself before its usually cheaper
hope you get a resolution soon
Update time.......
Right, police have virtually mugged me right off. Not surprising but a little annoying all the same :( I had hoped that they would have chased this up by now but I can't wait forever...
I'm just putting together the on line form to take him to court and it has asked me for a brief summary as to what and why I'm claiming. Does this read ok?
Thanks in advance as always :)
On November 12th 2013, I had offered Mr.
XXX an IWC wrist watch for sale. He told
me a client of his may be interested and that
he would take the watch and show this client
with a view to selling it for me. We agreed
he would return the watch within 14 days if
the sale was unsuccessful. Since that time,
Mr. XXX has refused to return the watch to
me or to make payment for it. He claims that
his client has taken it but refuses to give
details of this client to me. It is my belief
that Mr. XXX has sold the watch on and
withheld funds from me.
I am therefore claiming the sum of £3300
against Mr. XXX as this was the agreed
price of the watch along with the cost of the
carry case the watch was given to Mr XXX
in.
Sounds clear and straightforward. Are you allowed to attach any proof to back up your claim?
Presumably he'll have no class of criminal record even if you win your money back from him? Well done, the police. Open and shut case...too much trouble to prosecute?
Not sure if I've missed something here so just in case have you issue "Pre-action notification",you need to do this now before making a claim in court.
I've just done it with an NHS Trust and resolved it amicably without any resultant court costs or legal fees:
http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pro...action_conduct
Just pick a template here:
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-righ...ms-court-claim
Thanks for the heads up, I did send him a notice of action a while ago but sat on it until the police finished their investigations. As it's been almost two months since someone there spoke to me and as I can't ever seem to get hold of anybody, I assume its been put on a shelf somewhere!
- - - Updated - - -
They did give the option to do this. Do you think I should? it will be copies of emails he has sent me so presumably, he'll have all that anyway?
Probably worth noting in that that the watch was agreed to remain in his possession as opposed to being handed over to his client.
I think this confirms my earlier comments in this thread in #85:
It was right for him to report it to the police as a crime may well have been committed but it would nevertheless be unwise for him to rely solely on the police as he has no way of knowing what action (action that would be beneficial to him, that is) they might or might not take and/or how long it would take them. Time is always of importance in cases like this so clearly it makes sense for the creditor to take civil recovery action too.
In short: By all means report a possible crime to the police but don't wait for them to take any kind of action: Simultaneously pursue civil recovery actions too. In reality the police cannot be relied upon in situations like this.
Some suggestions:-
You offered for sale to Mr. X an "IWC wrist watch and carry case, valued together at £3300". I think it better to state up front clearly exactly what the subject of the dispute is and what its total value is.On November 12th 2013, I had offered Mr.
XXX an IWC wrist watch for sale.
Furthermore it might be wise to provide in the details section a precise description of the make and model of the watch and carry case.
This passage is irrelevant. After the initial explanation that the watch was taken by Mr. X on a sale or return basis, what Mr. X subsequently did with the watch is unimportant since it he who now owes you the money, regardless of what he has done with it. Therefore I wouldn't bother to include this part.He claims that
his client has taken it but refuses to give
details of this client to me. It is my belief
that Mr. XXX has sold the watch on and
withheld funds from me.
The phraseology could be tidied up here a bit perhaps. Suggestion:I am therefore claiming the sum of £3300
against Mr. XXX as this was the agreed
price of the watch along with the cost of the
carry case the watch was given to Mr XXX
in.
I am therefore claiming the sum of £3300
(plus additional court and recovery costs) against Mr. XXX
as this was the agreed
price of the watch and carry case.
Yes, in my opinion include this information. Make sure it is clearly set out in date order with who said what clearly visible. Also, as I suggested above, include a detailed description of the make and model of the watch and carry case.
Mark, thank you once again. Thanks also for all the other advice I've received from other members so far. I'm going to make a couple of changes as suggested and submit it. I will also send a hard copy of all emails to Mr. XXX (or fat thieving bastard). I had some concern that he could just deny the email address was his and the whole thing was some sort of vendetta or something but a bit of a google session today has turned up a leaflet of the local Rugby club where he is a coach listing his email address and phone number along side a photo of his silly fat gurning mug.
Form submitted. Lets see what happens :)
Good luck Dave, hope you finally get this resolved and get your money.
What a horrible thieving knob this bloke is!
Glad to help. Good luck with this! Very handy, should it come to it, that he has publicly confirmed his email address. :-)
Dave, I assume you are referencing this and also taken a screen grab clearly showing all his details? Print copies and keep a digital copy on your PC.
Good luck with this especially given the timescales!
Paul
Right, the next thrilling instalment of 'A big fat man stole my watch'...
I checked the 'Online money claim' website and he has submitted a defence on the 26th September, (although I can't seem to access the details online).
Anyone knows what happens next? Are we issued a court date? Will somebody be in touch?
I also haven't sent him hard copies of my evidence yet. Am i required to do so?
Sorry for all the questions but I've never done this before and expect being a little slippery of nature, he might have done!
Thanks in advance
Dave
Hi Dave
You should be able to access the online system to view and print off the defence (or acknowledgement). If he has filed a defence, the court will send you details of the next steps. In this case, usually directions and a questionnaire. You will be asked whether you wish to go through mediation. I think there is a good guide online on the site which explains the process. Ultimately, the matter would go before a judge. You will be informed when you have to produce your evidence including making any statement.
Anyway, I would venture to say a few words on your claim. From your particulars of claim, it would appear that you offered the watch to him for sale to another (his client). He is therefore your agent and must act according to your instructions. From reading your posts, (unless I am wrong) you may not have sold it to him. If he has sold it to another at a price higher than you may have agreed, he cannot keep the difference but must account to you. If he has lost it (whether lost or stolen) then he is responsible for it and must compensate you for the value. He also has a duty to look after the goods whilst in his possession.
Despite the clarity of your particulars of claim, I would think that a district judge would see it as a claim for return of goods and determine the case accordingly.
Regards.
The point about the invoice is his angle to charge you for his service and thus give you a lesser sum than you agreed to.
You will also at a later date get a letter from the courts giving the deadline date by which both parties must submit copies of what they intend to bring to court. Make sure that the correspondence you send him arrives to him on the day of the deadline (absolutely not before) so that he cannot open it and change any of his before sending it to you.
Wish me luck chaps, in the court waiting room as we speak...
Good luck.
Good luck!
Hope it goes well for you.
Good luck Dave
good luck. has the other guy turned up?
Good luck Dave!
good luck - hope you gain the watch/money and such a shame you've lost a friend/acquaintance
In there less than 5 mins. Went my way :)
I'll post some more details when I get home.
Thank you so much for all the advice given.
Dave
Hooves crossed for you!
Nice one.
"Bite my shiny metal ass."
- Bender Bending Rodríguez
Just discovered this thread, what a mess. Good luck, Dave!
Edit. I'm slow on my phone. Glad justice prevailed.
Just came across this today, very interesting read.
Congrats on the judgement :)
Deleted ...
I've only just come across this thread being a new member to TZ. I am really pleased it went your way and such a shame that it had to come to this seeing as you were friends. Be interested to read your full reply once you have time to post. It is a horrible position to be in where you lend a friend/family member money or goods that were clearly meant to be returned/repaid and you never see anything back.
I was going to wish you look although you probably wouldn't need it but congratulations on a correct result.
Let's hope you get your money back now.
Great result. Hope he doesn't play silly buggers actually paying you though.
Great news, hope you can now recover your watch or monies. Are you now going to name and shame him?
Sounds like justice has been done - Look forward to reading the details later. Well Done!
Well done Dave.
A good result, hopefully you'll get your money back.. and not at a £1 a week
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