Marriage

[Beaunidle]

Did you flip that ranger yourself or buy it like that???

Flipped it myself (well, paid a watchmaker to flip it) after advice from here that the 2824 movement could be flipped without issues. I like it and it is very simply reversible.

[doebag]

Got married in March just gone

Did it our way, with no interfering. The only people that knew we were getting married were the closest of close friends (maybe half a dozen, tops), our closest family (parents and grandparents) and my boss (he guessed when I asked to book holiday so far in advance).

We had an entire week in a lovely spa/b&b in Norfolk called The Pigs (part of the Byfords Group of b&bs), arrived on the Monday, married on the Tuesday (nearby reg. office) and left on the Thursday. Ate in all of our favourite pubs/restaurants around the North Norfolk coast, had a truly relaxed week and it cost us just short of £3k all in (that includes dress for her, suit for me, photographer for the day, accommodation, food, fuel etc. the lot!)

Weddings don't have to be expensive, but they do have to be perfect, and they don't have to be expensive to be perfect.

Plus - an excellent excuse to buy a new watch! Bought (sort of) matching watches for my wife and I - Junghans Max Bill Auto for me, and the Max Bill Damen for her. Bonus!

[Huertecilla]

I'm sure that logic takes a back seat.

A bit like a Swedish Princess riding shotgun in a 70s rally car - some things are fun and shouldn't be over-analysed.

I get the fun bit.
Am however convinced that marrying the marrying that princess would see you obliged to behave grown up, have less/no more fun and sell the car.
So have the fun, don't spoil it! Apply some logic :-)

[castle]

As it happens, today is my 21st wedding anniversary.
Best decision I ever made. I haven't taken my wedding ring off since that day.
I'm a one man and one woman for life man- I realise that this puts me in the (significant) minority but then I reckon I'm happier than almost anyone else I know.
Marriage is a commitment (independent of feelings at times) and can only work if both are equally committed. It isn't a partnership of two individuals, it is the giving up of your individuality to gain something much better.
I told you I held a minority view....

[Huertecilla]

Marriage is a commitment (independent of feelings at times) and can only work if both are equally committed. It isn't a partnership of two individuals, it is the giving up of your individuality to gain something much better.
I told you I held a minority view....

There is the loving commitment to share quality time or for raising offspring and then there is the legal institution. Those two commitments are vastly different and can exist separately.

Now you make one striking observation. About being equally committed.
Men are usually committed to a legal marriage like a pig to a ham. Do you know of any woman like that?
How many divorces do you know of that the man keeps living comfortable off the settlement his wife pays for? How many men with the kids, the house and the power to make visiting rights a hell for the wife?

I live in a loving partnership with the mother of my child with an equal commitment without a legal marriage.
Either/and she or I can leave whenever we desire and financial consequences are limited to the no longer joining of effort. There is no other price to pay by either of us, no unbalanced commitment. BECAUSE there is no legal marriage.

When you love someone, when you WANT to share quality time with someone, why involve the legal obligation? why exchange the want for a must?
If your partner wants to be with you, he/she will share quality time.
If your partner does not want to be with you, why would you want to be with her/him?
Because women want financial security? Ah... there goes equal commitment then.

[wildheart]

START

Devoted to my wife , madly in love with her.
Drove myself hard in my career in order to give her a secure home.
Had children very early as she was comparatively older than me.
Sacrificed my home and social life in order to support them.
Stood by my wife through tragedies and dramas.
Supported her opinions on things that I knew were important to her even though I was ambivalent on them.


MIDDLE

After 8 years of marriage I realised that not once had she ever returned me the same favour. Far from supporting me in my endeavors and things that I felt were important she was actively critical.

Expected me to work a 60 hour week and then "take over " parental duties so she could do whatever she pleased.
Used to criticise me for being at work all day whilst she had no job or career and the children were at school from 8.30-3.30pm. She didn't even cook or clean. I would have to do it. She wouldn't even let me hire in a cleaner as it would "disrupt" her day too much.

Promised me she would go back to work when the children went to school...kids are now 16 and she's not worked a day since they were born.

Accuses me of being a "bad" father regularly because I'm always at work as a direct result of her making me the sole breadwinner I have no alternatively but to work myself to death.

END

I have had to follow the work around the globe and now not only spend a huge amount of time away from home but even away from my country. Thankfully this gets me away from my wife.

And numerous other sadistic little attrocities that she has commited against me over the years.

Now I'm only waiting for the kids to be a little older and then its divorce time. If it wasn't for the children's sake I would have cut her loose years ago.

I've lived as a single man for the last 7 years and had girlfriends , told her she could also do what she likes. Nearly divorced her last year whe I discovered something really nasty she had done behind my back and then covered up by intercepting my mail.

Plan to move back to my Mother's house when in the UK and only stay in my own house when visiting the children occasionally or if I have business in London.

Will never get married again , did it for the right reasons but either I was blinded by love or niave enough to be manipulated by an older woman. Now I just look forwards to the day when I never have to interact with her again.

I can empathise reads like my first marriage, once you get rid never look back ....NEVER!

[Huertecilla]

I can empathise reads like my first marriage, once you get rid never look back ....NEVER!

Do LEARN though; don't repeat. If you repeat the same thing don't be surprised that you get the same result.

[kaiserphoenix]

If i have 2 properties and she has 2 properties, what happens after we get married? And then say we divorce?

[hogthrob]

Next month is our 13th anniversary. 13 years. 13 long years.


Marrying my wife taught me the true meaning of happiness.

[PaulSim]

I was married for 14 yrs and happily married for 2 weeks when she went to her mothers for a bit. I knew the end had come when she came down a water slide on our last holiday and it was like a turd plopping out a sewer pipe. I hated that woman. Alcoholic and abused the kids.

[Gyp]

I'd argue that it's better to be together for love than because you are contractually obliged.

Being married does double the inheritance tax limits for what you leave for your kids though.

[Huertecilla]

Next month is our 13th anniversary. 13 years. 13 long years.


Marrying my wife taught me the true meaning of happiness.

We had our 15th anniversary last year November without legal document.
A happy one as we stay together because we want to.

Can you explain what the legal status changes to the love status?
What does legal married status add??
Would you not be happy living together without involving the law???

Seeing that more than half of legal marriages ends by separation, the probability of unhappy legal consequences seems rather large. The benefit thus must be HUGE:
Risk is the chance of a mishap times the seriousness of the consequences.
Now put the chance of divorce x the cost/consequences.
Next compare this with driving a car and and chance x cost of a mishap.
The latter is way less risk than marriage yet we all drive insured, often even fully and marry at our peril.
So; as the original poster asked; what is the added value?

I wonder what the premium would be if we wanted to insure ourselves against the financial consequences of a marriage failing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_insurance
Staggering probably. Is that perhaps a logical way to look at it? To see if it is worth it?
The premium versus the added value.

[chrisparker]

I was married for 14 yrs and happily married for 2 weeks when she went to her mothers for a bit. I knew the end had come when she came down a water slide on our last holiday and it was like a turd plopping out a sewer pipe. I hated that woman. Alcoholic and abused the kids.

Quite a picture you've painted there. Love it.

[P9CLY]

We met at School at 14,married at 20 now 56 and still together.Works for some,not for others,those it doesn't work for go on to get married again usually!.

[Huertecilla]

http://www.safeguardguaranty.com/

'over 50% of married couples get divorced eventually and when they do, more than 40%, especially those with kids, go below the poverty line as a result.'

Marriage must be posing the largest single peace time threat to family economics, well being. Looking at it objectively that way it is rather strange it is not prohibited or seriously restricted.

[forpetesake]

http://www.safeguardguaranty.com/

'over 50% of married couples get divorced eventually and when they do, more than 40%, especially those with kids, go below the poverty line as a result.'

Marriage must be posing the largest single peace time threat to family economics, well being. Looking at it objectively that way it is rather strange it is not prohibited or seriously restricted.

That would be unkindness and selfishness, not marriage.

[seikopath]

That would be unkindness and selfishness, not marriage.

It sounds like according to his experiences they are the same

[Huertecilla]

It sounds like according to his experiences they are the same

Spot on.

Based on the facts and numbers, legal marriage is a large selfish threat to the future well being of both partners and their offspring.

Statistics are SO horrendous that the cultural promotion of this institution reminds me of a magicians ruse. We, the population living that culture, are conned into this institution that is in majority* harming our interests and those of our kids.

More than half of marriages ends in divorce and those that pertain are far from always happy.

Bottom line is: Why would the State give us tax benefits that are for a large part a cigar out of our own box and the promise of other benefits most times never realized?
It cannot be in the interest of our kids! They would best prohibit if it were!!

I totally get the importance of ritual commitment to an intent for the future, that is a human need.
I do not get the legal curtailing, the need for State involvement in a VERY private affair between individuals. That is not a human need at all!

Anyway, back to the logical facts.
The divorce insurance against the serious financial risk should give us a solid base for a weighed decision:
On the one hand we have a >50% chance of divorce with serious economic consequences.
On the other and we have some tax benefits and the 'security' of marital restrictions.

And the love? When you love someone, you leave him/her free.
So yes, imo LEGAL marriage is a selfish threat to the interests of the one we say we love and of the kids we share. Selfishness promoted by our 'culture' because of a larger, State interest.

[Normunds]

I don't believe in marriage as an institution. It has no benefit, it does not guarantee people will love each other in 10, 20, 40 years. In my view it is medieval tradition that has no relevance in today.

We are happily together without formal marriage for 21 year and I don't think that I have inform any authorities or get permission about my private or love life.

[kungfugerbil]

The 'over 50% end in divorce and climbing' stat is nonsense by the way - divorce rates peaked in the 80s and have been falling since.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/02/up...s-on.html?_r=1

[wildheart]

The 'over 50% end in divorce and climbing' stat is nonsense by the way - divorce rates peaked in the 80s and have been falling since.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/02/up...s-on.html?_r=1

Sorry I don't believe that, 80% of people in my office have got divorced in the last 20 years. Very few of my long term friends have stayed married... maybe in the States but not here in Essex England.

[Huertecilla]

I don't believe in marriage as an institution. It has no benefit, it does not guarantee people will love each other in 10, 20, 40 years. In my view it is medieval tradition that has no relevance in today.

As institution it goes back way further, to before recorded history. Most likely to when agriculture crated unequal distribution of wealth, making conservation of power and wealth an issue. Legal marriage was only about that.

Monogamy was not an issue until between the 6th and 9th century AD is baeame a guiding principle in legal marriage.

Sexclusivity was not included in it though. Especially men have considerable latitude till well in the 19th C. Off spring out of wedlock however was excempt from inheritance. That was after all the reason of it all!!

It is not until later still that love gets mixed in with it and the pretense of equality does not enter the equasion until some 50 years ago and then only in part of the western society.

So; legal marriage was about power and wealth for thousands of years.
Had nothing to do with monogamy, less still with sexclusivity and got mixed up with love only very recently and see where it got us.
Instead of preserving wealth; the inheritance for the offspring, as was the goal, it is now the vehicle to poverty for the fruits of our loins AND the State tells us how to love/ live in matrimony.

We are happily together without formal marriage for 21 year and I don't think that I have inform any authorities or get permission about my private or love life.

Exactly.
Nor about the form in which you choose to do so.

[Huertecilla]

The 'over 50% end in divorce and climbing' stat is nonsense by the way - divorce rates peaked in the 80s and have been falling since.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/02/up...s-on.html?_r=1

Believe what you need.

Over here in a mountain village of catholic andalucia, my 14 y.o. son has been with basically the same group of class mates since 1st of primary school.
Well over half of the group now has divorced parents. Some twice divorced. The divorce rate of this group must be about 60-65%
Again, that is village folk in the inlands of catholic Spain!
Also this does not mean that those not separated are happy, thus the success rate is lower still!

Remains that legal marriage has largely changed it's historic purpose 180 degrees.

[kungfugerbil]

Sorry I don't believe that, 80% of people in my office have got divorced in the last 20 years. Very few of my long term friends have stayed married... maybe in the States but not here in Essex England.

To counter that, I only know one divorced couple. Maybe Yorkshire is a happier place than Essex ;)

It's a function of age and time at which folks got married. The link clearly shows that if you got married in the 80s, you're pretty much screwed. Or not as may be more accurate...

The extrapolated data for those married in the noughties shows very much that the numbers are on the decline.

[ktmog6uk]

To counter that, I only know one divorced couple. Maybe Yorkshire is a happier place than Essex ;)

It's a function of age and time at which folks got married. The link clearly shows that if you got married in the 80s, you're pretty much screwed. Or not as may be more accurate...

The extrapolated data for those married in the noughties shows very much that the numbers are on the decline.

In my family, there is only one divorce out of 27 marriages.

[Dave+63]

The divorce rate of this group must be about 60-65%
Again, that is village folk in the inlands of catholic Spain!

Which, coincidentally, is the same proportion as weddings between cousins in said village!

[Huertecilla]

Which, coincidentally, is the same proportion as weddings between cousins in said village!

Checked with official statistics; it is 62% in Spain overall.
About average for Europe with Belgium number one with 72%.
The UK is lowish but it must be noted that, contrary to the rest of Europe, prenuptial contracts were/are not legal in the UK. Cost of divorces thus the % can not be compared.
It must also be noted that not divorced does not mean happy. It may very well mean too costly to divorce.

Durability or not aside, it remains that apart from possible tax benefits and selfish curtailing the freedom of the partners I have not yet read any pro for legal marriage.

Durability is not a pro argument at all. In the face of the cost of divorce, it looks more like a curse.

[wildheart]

To counter that, I only know one divorced couple. Maybe Yorkshire is a happier place than Essex ;)

I think your probably right, as a suburb of London we have been caught in its shinny lights. Our City (Chelmsford) centre is full of smart eateries and coffee shops.There’s very little substance to our society, we are fast becoming the homeless capital of Essex. Sad indictment of what was once a thriving Market Town.The population explosion and unstainable housing build will led to more pressures on families very over committed.

I’ve a soft spot for Yorkshire as I worked there for a while…having said that Hallam in Sheffield had a battered wife’s phone in show (circa 1990) on Hallam FM I used to listen to terrible stuff but unmissable!

[Neil.C]

In my family, there is only one divorce out of 27 marriages.

Same here, I know a fair few people and I don't know anyone who is divorced.

Mrs and I have had our silver wedding anniversary.

[50kopek]

I'm a one man and one woman for life man- I realise that this puts me in the (significant) minority

You're married to a man and a woman? That does put you in the minority...

[Wharry]

1st Marriage - Kinda fell into after a few years together, peer group were all getting married so we did too. Relationship was 6 years, marriage lasted 18mths

2nd Marriage - Made me realise how badly wrong I'd got it the first time and what marriage should be like.

[Beaunidle]

I do, rather unkindly, feel very smug that out of all of my 12 year old daughter's friends she is the only one where the parents were married well before birth and are also still happily together. In fact not 'and', you can substitute 'or' and the statement would still have validity.

Secret to a good marriage? In my opinion it's a spare room for when you know you're gonna snore.

[chrisparker]

To counter that, I only know one divorced couple. Maybe Yorkshire is a happier place than Essex ;).

Could it be that the stereotypical Yorkshire men are a bit more financially cautious,so stick with a moaning wife. Or possibly Essex women are true to their stereotype and can't keep their pants on.

[Dave+63]

Could it be that the stereotypical Yorkshire men are a bit more financially cautious,so stick with a moaning wife. Or possibly Essex women are true to their stereotype and can't keep their pants on.

In Yorkshire we work on the principle that if she's moaning she must be happy. It's when she shuts up you know you're in trouble!

[kungfugerbil]

Or possibly Essex women are true to their stereotype and can't keep their pants on.

I *had* been meaning to take a trip down that way...

[seikopath]

my friend says you get four rings when you get married
1. the engagement ring
2. the wedding ring
3. the suffering
4. the boring

[MerlinShepherd]

My wife and I got married 12 and a half years ago.

We knew that we were committed and we both loved each other then as we do now. We talk constantly about everything, share our thoughts, feelings and work together in a mutually creative way, supporting each other and helping each other out with our musical endeavours. We mutually own all our stuff.

She is from Russia, where we met at a conference. We both knew we had found the right person and if she hadn't needed a UK visa to stay then we may not have got married. I waited until I was 40, before tying the knot, having had relationships that didn't work out before. This was different and still is.

I have absolutely no regrets and still get that little "shiver" when we hold each other. I consider myself blessed and am constantly grateful that we found each other. We had two friends at our actual wedding and then a lunch party at our place for a few close friends and family the following weekend. We are not religious and do not believe in conventional displays of commitment to our peer group. They just know.

So to be or not to be? It's up to you. If you both feel right, love, respect and trust each other, then go for it, obviously. Remember that the whole process was invented as a financial contract and has become something else over the years. It is really good to have a constant partner whom you love and trust.

[Huertecilla]

Remember that the whole process was invented as a financial contract and has become something else over the years.

Crucial that.

It is a confused mix up because the concept of 'marriage' is basically any understanding between individuals to live together. Nothing more, nothing less.
The legal marriage is ditto including legal obligations and rights, at the same time limiting the form and stetting rules about the behavior.
Then we have the religious aspect that consists of an akin set but now of moral nature.
The former two are however strongly connected, even overlapping as legal culture is part product of the religious culture.
Love is basically NOT included as factor; at least not as the guiding one; it is submissive to what though shall and shall not.

As I wrote earlier, I would marry my loves in the sense of a ritual symbolizing the intention of durable love but the legal/religious mix of western culture prohibits that.
I think it is fundamentally wrong that State/church interfere with how individuals love or not and choose to live together or not. Imo the State should simply administrate fact and religion should reach no further than the congregation.

[aa388]

It's a function of age and time at which folks got married. The link clearly shows that if you got married in the 80s, you're pretty much screwed. Or not as may be more accurate...

That makes me feel better, both my Divorces came from 80s weddings. I've never married the one I've been living with for the last 22 years as it would take the fun out of telling her that if she doesnt buck up i'll drop her off back at her parents.

[Mr.D]

After yet another unpleasant development instigated by my wife I am now moving forward with divorce proceedings.

[Huertecilla]

After yet another unpleasant development instigated by my wife I am now moving forward with divorce proceedings.

Right.
If individuals love each other they want to stay together and more than the understanding is not needed.
If she would be with you out of love, then she would not instigate developments you would perceive as unpleasant enough to start divorce proceedings.
The cost and effort involved in the latter creates a corresponding amount of room for unpleasantness and frustration within the relation.
So why go there in the first place?
This thread so far has not produced a single added value of the current mixed up concept of legal marriage. An anecdotal statement that it CAN be sustained contains no argument of added value.

[alan2273]

I have been married for 45 years and would not change her for anyone.
Unfortunately she now has dementia and it is like losing my soulmate.
Still she looked after me for 40 years till the dementia started so now it is my turn.

[wildheart]

I think it is fundamentally wrong that State/church interfere with how individuals love or not and choose to live together or not. Imo the State should simply administrate fact and religion should reach no further than the congregation.

I have to agree with this. Having been brought up as a Christian my formative years were indoctrinated with, the concept of marriage, Christenings and confirmation.
My parents’ marriage was far from‘Bless this House’ idealism. My father dictated as to all of our movements, even as to what was watched on the TV listened to on the radio.
I started to rebel in the late 60’s fuelled by a mixture of Martin Luther King speeches and John Lennon rants. This led to splits within the family.
Marriage supported the oppression of women in the 50’, 60’s and 70’s. When I did get married in the early 80’s I found myself in conflict with childhood memories of how a husband/ father should behave. My laissez faire approach to marriage was a disaster, as my wife wanted to be kept and live within the confines of a marriage like her mother had.
The more I kicked back at the concept of marriage (in the 1980’s) the further my wife and I drifted apart. By 1990 I was in the pub, 2 kids to bring up with a hefty mortgage.
I wanted a partner in life and a friend, lover and confident…my wife wanted to be kept.
It ended badly for all of us, the kids now in their late 20’s early 30’s still chew over the times we all lived through together.
I got out of the marriage to save myself from alcoholism, it cost me a pretty penny but it saved me and allowed my errant family to flourish. My ex remarried within two years and is now kept.
I stumbled into another marriage but this was under extraordinary circumstances but in hindsight was doomed for failure, as I had become naïve and soft due to trauma and illness.
I now live with someone who shares my belief that marriage has no place in our lives. We live as partners, lovers and friends it’s probably the relationship I really wanted originally

[wildheart]

I have been married for 45 years and would not change her for anyone.
Unfortunately she now has dementia and it is like losing my soulmate.
Still she looked after me for 40 years till the dementia started so now it is my turn.

That is so sad, I wish you both the very best

[demonloop]

Two things that i think are a big help to us were; moving a long way away from our family and friends as soon as were got married and her consistent ability to get into her wedding dress.

How did that help?

Most of our friends and family are on our doorstep, and I can't really imagine it any other way.

Different folk I suppose...

On marriage, I'm 3 weeks short of 1 year :-)

Going OK so far!

[Huertecilla]

We live as partners, lovers and friends it’s probably the relationship I really wanted originally

I bow to your persistence and am happy for you.

How sad that established cultural conventions force a great many of us to go through a painful and traumatic learning process towards the happiness which we could very simply have had from the beginning.
Established cultural conventions are just virtual figments of the minds of ... yes whom????

In our western world the marriage ethics are basically originating from the 6-9th century catholic church ideology and mixed up with State interests. Today it is a mess of questionable moral values*, State interests and political correctness. It has NOTHING to do with US, our needs or our individual well being.

*Take the 'being kept' of a wife. In what way does that differ from prostitution with one client?
In legal marriage she has a certain right on payment without obligation to deliver.
In the religious one she has the obligation.
Questionable indeed.

Good for you Wildheart; enjoy the 'living in sin'!!!

[raysablade]

How did that help?

Most of our friends and family are on our doorstep, and I can't really imagine it any other way.

Different folk I suppose...

On marriage, I'm 3 weeks short of 1 year :-)

Going OK so far!

We had to rely on each other, sort problems out together and not run away from them. If nothing else, running away was a three hour journey. I remember the couple next door, when we got first married, had bought their house specifically so it was close to his parents. After every argument he went "home", they were divorced within a year.

I'm not saying it is the only reason why relationships succeed or that they can't succeed in different circumstances, but it is interesting that whilst we had lived together since shortly after we met, i felt that our relationship strengthened after we moved away from Sheffield. I still go down regularly for work and for the football but the focus of my life is where my wife is; I suspect that's important.

PS: The wedding dress thing is probably more important; I've never felt that i could have done better.

[relaxer7]

Seems the vast majority of posters are happily married then?! Is anyone seriously peed off with the ball and chain?

[Huertecilla]

Seems the vast majority of posters are happily married then?!

Have you read this same thread?

Is anyone seriously peed off with the ball and chain?

Have you read this same thread?

[MerlinShepherd]

I have been married for 45 years and would not change her for anyone.
Unfortunately she now has dementia and it is like losing my soulmate.
Still she looked after me for 40 years till the dementia started so now it is my turn.

This is a sign of real Love, not just obligation. I respect your sentiments very highly for this. And wish you both well...