Reply With QuoteWe all want that. The sooner you get yours, the later the rest of us will get ours. They are burdened by a heavy order load at the moment and competent watchmakers are not easily found in Germany.Originally Posted by andy tims
Does anyone have any senior level contracts at Sinn - preferably in their customer services team please?
I'm wanting to apply a bit of pressure to get my EZM1 back from service without further delay.
Thanks in advance.
Andy
Wanted - Damasko DC57
We all want that. The sooner you get yours, the later the rest of us will get ours. They are burdened by a heavy order load at the moment and competent watchmakers are not easily found in Germany.
I get that, but poor comms and broken promises are not really excusable.
They have had my watch since 10th of October 2016!
When they eventually gave me a quote (5th December) they said it would be mid February return date.
When I emailed them last week they said mid March!
Thanks for your helpful post though
Andy
Wanted - Damasko DC57
^
Try contacting Lothar Schmidt (CEO) via info@sinn.de marking the message for his attention.
6 months is the average. Unacceptable.
Sinn do appear to be overburdened by work on the service side. I sent a watch back to them through Page and Cooper (who were great!), and have been advised to expect around 20 weeks or so.
5 months for a service seems unusually long!
I'm surprised that the waiting times are so long. IIRC, they used to be pretty good at turning things around.
Songs like I have to say goodbye to mine if I'm sending it in...I get that, but poor comms and broken promises are not really excusable.
They have had my watch since 10th of October 2016!
When they eventually gave me a quote (5th December) they said it would be mid February return date.
When I emailed them last week they said mid March!
Thanks for your helpful post though
You say this as if Sinn are helpless. There's such a thing as investing in training. There's clearly a demand for the service. Any company with foresight plans ahead and invests in their staff. This is becoming an unacceptable mantra amongst industry: can't find the workers. Train them!
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That's exactly what's happening. The industry's training watchmakers with a will. The problem is, they're catching up on 30 years where everyone (ok, not quite everyone) bought quartz and mech was nothing more than a curiosity for most people.
That's definitely good but it sounds like some started far too late.
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Surely the solution for Sinn would be to book in the service 'slot' and you send the watch to them at the appropriate time.
Maybe that's more difficult to administer.
Simple answer to this; make parts available and let any competent repairer service them unless is something really specialised. They create their own problem and owners suffer. Teutonic arrogance at its best.
Paul
Does that mean Nomos' reputation for friendly helpful customer service makes them an example of Teutonic arrogance at its worst?
Hahahahaha. V good.
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No worse than Swiss arrogance in this context. ;-)
Six months for a Sinn isn't ok.
This is a very strange situation for Sinn to make for themselves.
They have made a real USP of inventing and using innovative technology in their watches, often to solve a problem that no-one knew they had. Some examples.
Ar-filled cases (to solve what? corrosion? a good moisture seal does that). The fact that they now use Nitrogen shows the original idea had flaws and they are now tapdancing.
CuSO4 capsules (again, this may dry a miniscule amount of water, but a proper seal leak will swamp that, rendering it pointless)
Oil-filled cases (I like the viewing angle increase, but effective seals give all the WR you need).
Diamond Pallet Stones (why, ruby is good enough)
And so on. It would seem a deliberate ploy of theirs to ensure that, despite the use of off-the-shelf movements, their watches return to the Sinn mothership to get serviced.
So we send them.
And then, they do not have enough people to service them in good time.
Really????
Not good.
D
I think it already is for many of us. Eg, on the negative side, I was on the brink of buying a JLC, but the myriad service horror stories deterred me and I can't imagine buying one now unless the Richemont picture improves. I have also cooled on Breitling given the apparent decline at BUK, which I've experienced directly. On the upside I'm more enthusiastic about Omega than I used to be because their service rep seems to have improved; one reason that Rolex are such a solid purchase is that the after-care seems pretty reliable; and I'd love a Nomos because they are (in terms of this thread) the anti-Sinn. So I think service rep is quite a big factor for buyers - albeit of course in the small WIS demographic.
I completely agree - I love Sinn watches but will only buy ones that can be serviced by an independent. I dont want to be locked into expensive and slow servicing of bog standard movements for questionable gains. I had a U1 and now a 104 which both use unmodified movements and anyone can open them up.
They seem to have an active Twitter account and Facebook page (easy to pm and/or make a public visitor post). Contacting through social media often elicits a quick response ime.
I also have JLC on a list to avoid, along with Doxa. After some rubbish service with Omega I vowed not to buy another new one but STS do an excellent job with their vintage watches. I feel far more comfortable with Rolex knowing Duncan Potter can work on them (just sent one to him yesterday). So now to add Sinn to the list.
Thinking about it, it's a minor inconvenience for those of us with a few watches but imagine if you only own a Sinn and don't have it for five or six months, surely that's easily long enough to go and find a new watch that's not a Sinn? I'd have thought that was doubly bad business practice.
"A man of little significance"
Definitely, and throw the words "disappointed" and "my watch forum" in a couple of times.
Done yesterday thanks for the suggestion.
I have this morning had a response (from Frank Shloer - Major Projects Corporate Customer Support, as Lothar Schmdt is abroad on business) to say they will have the service completed by 15th February, which is in line with their original commitment.
Andy
Wanted - Damasko DC57
I bet they do, too.
Good result :)
I had a German colleague from Frankfurt whose only watch was a Sinn. It misted up so he dropped it off at the Frankfurt shop and got a really Sinn quartz (similarish to a 556 on a strap) as a stand-in. Despite what I said earlier, that's great service from a small brand. But it doesn't seem to apply to people who send watches in from the UK.
Paul - you can get the watch 'B' serviced like any other 5100 from someone who has the bits [discontinued movement, not withheld parts] & wherewithal; you just won't get new pushers, crown or ar refill (not 100% necessary). I don't think this is a service parts availability problem. Sinn will give you the full 'A' service, but you pay for that with time it would seem due to undermanning/demand probably. I don't see any arrogance here....?
OK, so lets assume someone gives their Sinn to a repairer for what you term a B service. A responsible repairer will also check the water resistance of the watch before handing it back; if the watch subsequently leaks after being serviced the repairer will get the blame, it's like pass the parcel and whoever handles a watch gets blamed for any problems. Being unable to obtain pushers and seals is a problem and I personally would be reluctant to work on a watch if I couldn't get these parts. Hands are also a worry; if they become damaged whilst being removed there's no 'get out of jail' card for the hapless repairer because they aren't available. In the majority of cases the hands come off OK put it's not unknown for the pipe to pull out of the chrono hand when it's being pulled off, they fit on a taper and they can be v. tight. That's why some manufacturers put new handsets on when servicing watches.
Like I said, the problem of lengthy delays could be largely overcome if they supplied parts to everyone. It's not the movement parts, it's the manufacturer-specific bits that are the problem.
Paul
Do many brands supply their specific parts to independents? Can you not get the correct size Viton seals? I'm genuinely curious.
In principle you can buy generic seals, but ensuring you get the correct size isn`t easy. think about it, how would you measure an O ring that's around 3.2mm OD x 2.1mm ID? The answer is to buy a few (Ł5-50 for 10) and trial fit. That's around Ł25 spent to solve one problem, but at least you know you've got them for the next job....if it ever comes along. I don`t mind sizing and fitting generic O rings if the original isn`t available (old watches) but it goes against the grain when you know the right part's out there but the manufacturer won`t sell you it.
Some brands will sell parts, no problem. I`ve sourced parts for Glycine watches via Jura in the past and I can get TAG parts but that's strictly for my own repair jobs. Until 2015 Omega and other Swatch brands parts were readily available but that's now changed (unless Anthony Cousins gets his way).
There are very few instances where manufacturers of a product won`t supply parts to the repair trade, but the Swiss (and Germans) do it, hence my comments about Teutonic arrogance. Not my favourite folks I`m afraid, I worked for an anglo Swiss company and I`ve experienced it first-hand in a technical environment...........'ve know best'
You choose to own these brands, you're signing on to the maintenance costs and the waiting to get the thing fixed.
Paul
Paul
I just heard from Sinn, them having received my 657 and EZM1 on 16th Jan
My 657 is a warranty repair, and will be ready in 2 weeks. They prioritise these jobs.
My EZM1 will be assessed in one week (estimate) and ready 12-16 wks from confirmation.
Quite a long time really....
D
Interested as my UX should have arrived a couple of weeks ago - bit confused by your post though (probably me)
So the warranty repair is prioritised (excellent news) and ready in two weeks - where's the 12-16 coming from again?
Sorry if being overtly thick!
657 and EZM1 are two separate watches that I sent to Sinn at the same time
Not that I disagree with you but I have also noticed that other parts of Europe seem to call this sort of thing Anglo-Saxon arrogance and include the British[1] in it. ;-)
Indeed for new purchases, although (as I think you have pointed out previously) this is not true for all those who bought these watches long before the manufacturers introduced their restrictive parts policies.
Footnote:-
1: Which is something of an insult to the many Celtic British and more recent British of other races!
3-4 months (plus a week) for a repair is a very long time indeed. They are not alone in this but it's good to see that they prioritise warranty fixes.
I had a watch repaired under warranty by a German brand (made in Switzerland though) and it took 6 months! I suspect, but am not sure, that it had to wait until the case manufacturer could make another case.
Last edited by markrlondon; 9th February 2017 at 13:51.
Does this mean a sudden increase of Sinn's on the sales site as they are due for a service, jolly good lol, could well be in the market for another U1 at some stage :)
Sorry, makes perfect sense now :)
I bought a breitling superocean heritage from watches of Switzerland and was shocked to find it was 15 secs off a day - and it wasn't magnetised. Shocking for a brand new chronometer. I took it back and they sent it off - took 4 weeks to come back but it was +/- 0 secs on return. Confidence broken cos of the issue but they kept me informed even if I was watchless for 4 weeks despite having shelled out a large wedge of cash. In short I guess these little mechanical marvels we all lust after are temperamental little things and to fix them rarely takes only a day. glad yours got resolved in time tho.
Sinn have had my watch since September. Just a recase and a service. Not great is it.
My 103A-Sa-B had to go back, under warranty, as it suddenly started gaining about a minute a day. Send back just before xmas to P&C who forwarded it to Sinn early Jan. Following a 2-3 week estimate, it actually took them a month just to do an appraisal. Got an email on Tuesday estimating the work will be completed "mid March" (which I take to mean about 6 more weeks).
We'll see how it goes. Since others have said warranty work is given priority, non-warranty work must be taking a ridiculous length of time!
P&C did say before I posted the watch to expect a backlog, partly due to staff holidays. This thread makes me think the problem is a bit deeper than that. Fingers crossed nothing else goes wrong for a long time afterwards.
Out of warranty I'd much rather have work done by a good independent and wasn't aware of a parts problem with non-exotic (oil-filled, diapal etc) models from Sinn. I've got a few other Sinn models on my future wishlist, but I'm defintely having second thoughts - especially for say, the 757, where other similar options exist.
On that specifically, are Damasko any better (or worse) for supplying parts? Something in the back of my mind is saying that had something to do with the falling out with Eddie, but I can't remember the exact reasons now.
I agree with the above (that the Ar and CuS04 capsules are pretty much unnecessary providing the watch has a healthy traditional seal) therefore I'm not sure that I would go to the lengths of having my 203 serviced by Sinn directly, considering the servicing lead time they seem to be quoting.
surely a competent watchmaker is able to service the Valjoux 7750 movement, but simply not refill with Ar or replace the capsule?
Watch is out of guarantee and no intentions (at the moment at least) of flipping . . . I can't imagine no Ar or capsule will have a negative effect on the movement operation and time keeping if properly serviced?
what do we think?
Apparently worse. It's one of the reasons I moved on a DA46.
I'm guessing the less exotic Sinn models (104 etc) would be much simpler to get serviced by a decent independent?
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That's a pity, but I thought as much :( Although at least, as I prefer the 757's dial to the Damasko equivalents, if I do decide to get one later, I have fewer considerations to weigh up.
For watches designed to be tools and marketed on robustness, you'd think serviceability would be higher up the priority list for both these brands. One of the things I like about the engineering of Vostoks is that they are designed to be "poor workmanship tolerant" and easily field-serviceable by an amateur using only basic tools. It's a pity these brands don't seem to think about the concepts of robustness and reliability in the same real-world terms.
Simpler perhaps, but still potentially non-viable. See Paul (walterwerk1958)'s comments earlier in this thread. If small issues put people off touching them, it doesn't matter if the movement iself is just a stock ETA. Not to mention potential issues getting hold of ETA parts nowadays anyway, but that applies far more broadly than just Sinn.
I HTF that you’re planning on making sure the warranty is extended to cover the time you’ve been without the watch!
I like a few of Sinn's watches, but this thread has killed the notion of getting one, stone dead.
Last edited by PJ S; 14th February 2017 at 21:02.
I'd be interested in how they approach the warranty question - mine is/may be back with Sinn at the moment.
Separately, I must say from reading threads on here and elsewhere, P&C do seem a little more focussed on the customer point of view...
By way of an update my service has been completed and paid for so hopefully the EZM1 will be back soon.
Andy
Wanted - Damasko DC57
Just digging this up from the depths. I spoke to Page and Cooper yesterday about getting my EZM1 LE serviced. I asked them about the 6 month wait, at which they told me that P&C will actually be the UK Sinn authorized service centre from the end of April. They will be able to do the full service, including copper sulphate capsules and gas (didn't say whether Ar or N) on all Sinns with the exception of the oil filled ones. They obviously send them somewhere in the UK, presumably their own service centre.
Any thoughts or experience with their current servicing? Worth a punt to avoid the very long wait if the watch goes back to Frankfurt?
Have a look for the p&c Damasko servicing thread- this does not sound like good news.
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