Reply With QuoteWith respect, I'd suggest that you do a search on the forum, as this is a topic which has been discussed here many times before.
If you do so, you will also appreciate why box and papers add little, if anything, to the authenticity of a watch.
I'm thinking of buying a Panerai that comes without box and papers. It's from a reputable dealer, so I've got no problems over the watches authenticity.
In terms of price what would you expect the original boxes and papers to add to the value? I'm thinking in the region of £200 t0 £300. Am I close? Many thanks.
Last edited by Ozzie; 16th April 2017 at 13:35.
With respect, I'd suggest that you do a search on the forum, as this is a topic which has been discussed here many times before.
If you do so, you will also appreciate why box and papers add little, if anything, to the authenticity of a watch.
You should consider that the Paneristi can be more demanding of B&P than other makes though.
Also need to factor in which watch. If readily available, it is a different answer to an expensive limited edition where B&P will be more important
I did do a search but it didn't show up much in answer to my question, perhaps the search was too broad?Originally Posted by PhilipK
Its not authenticity I'm concerned about. Just interested to find out the price differential. Thanks
7 years?
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?393457
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?385897
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?372096
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?358863
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?358587
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?337734
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?337656
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?326770
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?327148
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?306989
Etc.
Many thanks
Based on when I have tried to buy or sell watches with and without papers, I reckon 10%-15%..
I would suggest even more. I don't think it's a great sell when the box papers are missing. Leaves too many questions unanswered, like was the watch looked after, stolen...etc.
Depends entirely what the watch is really. Not sure what box and papers has to do with a watch being looked after though.
I've binned many a box and paper, because i cant be bothered with having g them cluttering g the place up.
And as a recent thread has indicated regarding some Rolex watches, watches with box and papers does not mean they were legally acquired.
The year model of watch might help.
I know you have stated the brand, which help a little, but not much, otherwise the answer would be a few pounds to thousands of pounds ;)
It's just a matter of time...
^^this, perfectly this. If you do buy and want to resell, do everything in your power to document the legitimacy. Movement pics, dial macros, the works. That can allay some fears but you will still be selling low. I think the main issue is not if it's stolen or not, but is it real.
For me B&P makes a difference, whilst not essential, in my experience the seller with b&p seems to take care/pride in the watch serviced as and when, cleaned regularly and gives me more faith in the watch in the beginning stages of buying.
As others have said from a few £ to thousands b+p especially important to me if it's an expensive make eg panerai/Rolex and they will make the watch a lot easier to sell in the real world
B&P on a Newman Daytona will add 5 figures, easily.
On a low end G shock maybe £10.
So yeah, about 10-20%
Panerai collectors are notorious analists when it comes to all of the outer boxes, stickers etc being present though. Reckon the value of a PAM, and certainly its ease of resale, might be hit harder.
20-25% on Panerai IMHO. I would be looking for 25% if it was me.
Personally I wouldn't buy without box and papers as I would want the reassurance it isn't stolen ether recently or years back.
Papers and a box don't tell you if a watch is or was stolen at some point ?? Only a serial number or more importantly a check of said serial number through a lost or stolen register which brands like Rolex don't do anymore as far as I know?
If the serial number has been filed off then that's a good indicator that is is or was stolen;-)
A buy from trusted people now or people with history, if a watch has had a recent service with paperwork to prove it from the manufacturer then that means a lot more to me than an old box and an old out of date guarantee?? Don't get me wrong the OCD WIS in me wants all the paperwork, the inner and outer boxes, the tags, the protective stickers etc etc but I don't use them as my way of reassuring myself about a purchase????
They are just something I like to have as I know that lots of people, like yourself, put a lot of faith in them so when it comes to resale it opens my market up a lot more?!?
Saying all of that I'm looking for a Red Sub at the moment and if it had box and papers I'm not sure I would want to pay the rediculous premium that would bring as original dial and hands etc all matching are more important for me!
Anyway just my thoughts on it!
Chris
Last edited by subchris; 18th April 2017 at 22:51.
For me B&P is a must. I always keep everything for my watches and would expect the same when buying used.
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Rolex do still maintain their Lost and Stolen Register - however, they will only divulge the contents to ADs (or to law enforcement) and not to the general public.
There is also the industry-wide and non-brand-specific SaferGems Register (https://www.safergems.org.uk/), which our own Haywood Milton has been instrumental in setting up.
We had a Rolex stolen and Rolex were nit interested in what the CID gentleman had to say??
Whether they took the serial number I'm not aware of however he wasn't impressed with their unwillingness to help?
I'm not sure in what way he wanted their assistance so I can only go by what he said?
Box and papers unless new mean nowhere near as much as a recent service for me anyway!!
Just made me realise actually that I need to take new pictures of all my collection and log the serial numbers again!!
Got the new fingerprint recognition safe and alarm etc fitted but need to remember to update my info held??!!!
Cheers!
Chris
Badboy
I can understand you wanting a full set but believe me it means nothing.
I used to be the Purchasing Manager of Print for a very large organisation and the main problem that security printers have to contend with is counterfeit print.
Basically there are "naughty" printers out there printing off fake bank notes, fake security passes, fake gift vouchers, fake tickets for holidays, theatre admissions and almost anything you can think of. The counterfeits are extremely good and will fool anyone because the ink and the paper are the same as the original documents. They can perforate, sequentially number, insert metallic strips, make water marks and believe me it will fool you and also an AD. Plastic cards are ultra easy to fake.
The rate of production is massive and I have stood in rooms stuffed with these fakes. It is genuinely scary.
I was in that job for over 12 years and I will be honest enough to admit, I cannot determine between a fake and the real thing. Even professional security printers were fooled.
The name of the game is simple. A "naughty" printer will print a fake for around £20 and sell it for say £150 to a person with a genuine Rolex without papers.
The Rolex owner then sells it onto you at an inflated price because you insist on a full set. Both the printer and the watch seller are quids in.
You have a genuine Rolex but the supporting papers may well be fake - you just don't know.
Anyone who pays over the odds for a full set really is kidding themselves.
Regards
Mick
If B & P is important to that particular buyer then it's worth whatever they're willing to pay.
It's obviously very subjective. Doesn't mean much to me, but if having the full set means something to someone then fine, just don't expect it to add value unless you're selling to someone who is of a similar mindset
I don't doubt the ability of these people to create what they want and fool almost anyone Mick but is it really rife in our hobby? I doubt there is many people who have the contacts for this.
Ok Fair question
Basically if a "naughty" printer is given a genuine original of anything, it can be copied.
For legal reasons I promised not to name names but I have seen fake documentation on most household companies.
I will admit that I have never personally seen a Rolex paper fake, but I only became interested in Rolex after I reached the age of 65, so I did not look them out at the time.
However it is dead easy to obtain them.
To give you an example on how good they are, about 30 years ago I bought a very old map of Wiltshire by a man called Robert Morden. These are expensive and reasonable well sought after by collectors.
I later found out that a "naughty" printer in my own town was printing them out on 200 year old paper, using the same inks and the same copper plate. I asked him if I had inadvertently bought one of his fakes and he replied, he couldn't tell the difference between his own fake and a genuine item. I then asked him how many he had printed and his reply was f****** thousands.
Also he used to print dust covers for out of print first edition books that had no covers. He did this to order to supply collectors who bought a book cheaply without a cover and then resold it at a nice profit to another innocent collector who thought it was the genuine article.
He died 10 years ago and technology has improved since then.
I hope you now understand my scepticism.
With modern watches I have no idea why people get so hung up on having the box. It's fairly easy to source these from auctions, etc. for not very much at all. Papers on the other hand are a different story and can't be replaced; save that some manufacturers may give you an archive extract at a later date (pretty sure Patek will if the watch is five or more years old)
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