No, it reads that you will happily keep shtum about unethical practices as long as you get a chance at the watch for RRP. In order to take any moral high ground you should really report it anyway and boycott any further purchases from the dodgy blighters. If offered a discount even.
I notice he does,nt take such a dim veiw of some third party making at least 6k profit that's ok with him,or maybe he's just pissed because one could be obtained @ 2.5k cheaper than the 3 he currently has on his website.Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner
Ethics are ethics and applies equally to everyone. Taking a £3000.00 bribe is illegal and that is the end of it.
Really, did you work that out all by yourself?
It is all the fault of those who receive benefits, how about their super rich and global corporations paying little or no tax ...
Last edited by Montello; 31st March 2018 at 11:34.
An under-paid salesman makes £3k, risking his job in doing so. The buyer gets a sought-after watch, but is involved in something sleazy.
Yes, it's immoral and unpleasant. But in the grand scheme of things.....not worth so much indignation.
Meaningless claptrap
No it isn't. Like haywood said, it is simply tax evasion.
As an AD this fills me with rage.
He is a crook, pure and simple, and if his employer is unaware of this then he's a fool.
This salesperson, if they are that corrupt and desperate for money, could quite probably be stealing stock from the shop too.
They have no place in the store or in this trade, and it should be reported to his boss as they could lose the agency very easily.
And everything Haywood says, as always, is quite correct.
And nobody should pay a penny above list from a Rolex AD.
Pure and simple.
No matter the legality of it there is no loss to the revenue here.
As stated previously is the revenue benefitting from somebody flipping that watch to a grey dealer at 12-12.5K?
Or if it is bought to keep then again the revenue gets no further gain so I'm not too concerned about the tax bit of it.
The morality issue is another argument.
Hood - think it through
Say there is a Rolex with a RRP of £10K and the salesperson sells to you with a £3K bung
The AD pays tax on £10K and the salesperson pays no tax on the £3K and HMRC is defrauded
If the AD sells to a grey dealer for £10K and grey dealer sells for £13K,, then AD pays tax on £10K and grey dealer pays tax on £3k, so HMRC gets the tax.
The main issue for members of the SC is would you ever buy or sell from someone who lacks any sense of ethical behaviour. I certainly would not deal with anyone like that in a million years.
However, it’s not possible for most people to buy from an AD at all. I’ve just been (again) into my local Goldsmiths, after going in last week and being told I couldn’t put my name down for Pepsi GMT because I haven’t bought a Rolex from them previously. So I thought, well, I don’t mind waiting, so I’ll put my name down for one of the “lesser” sports Rolex’s, which I’d quite like anyway, then when that turns up I can go on the list for a GMT. But no, it seems it not actually possible to buy a sports Rolex from Goldsmiths, since they will not even put anyone down on a list for any steel sports Rolex! The customer assistant explained that this is because these are reserved for important customers, like the chap that bought 5 hulks last year!
We had an entertaining philosophical conversation about how I could become a Goldsmiths customer when it’s not possible to buy any of the things I would like from them, because their important customers feel the need to accumulate large numbers of identical watches which just happen to be selling in the grey market at far above list, but I still left sans watch or any possibility of getting one.
As it happens, I certainly don’t want one enough to pay over list, but if I did, and for some people a 3k premium is worth paying, then I would consider the deal above. I don’t consider that worse than a dealer flogging lots of premium watches to a small number of entitled individuals in the full knowledge they’ll be on Watchfinder the next day with a fat (and untaxed) profit for the “important” client.
So, whilst it’s easy to blame Rolex for this weird situation I do think it’s exacerbated by the AD’s and their loyalty schemes. Just put the watches in the window when they arrive, maybe.
Last edited by berin; 31st March 2018 at 15:45.
We would put them in the window if we could but that would involve people not ringing from every corner of the UK wanting these great watches.
And that is why we try to look after our very small corner of the UK and our local customers. It's the only way in this modern, internet-fuelled world. And bear in mind that anyone wanting to buy a Datejust, Perpetual or Day-Date can see them in the window like the good old days!!
Either way it doesn't give that crook any excuse for behaving in that way.
Am I the only TZUKer that prefers these models to any of the sports range anyway? (Polar ExpII 42mm excepted)
I wouldn't consider paying even half RRP for any of the Rolex Sports models. And I'm not trolling before anyone suggests I am!
It's stuff like this that actually puts me off Rolex.
You're already paying a premium price for a stainless steel chrono, that probably tells the time no better than many other stainless steel chronos. This is the same game Porsche play with 'limited edition models' and I wouldn't play their game either.
It's a mixture of Rolex limiting demand, AD's playing God as to who is 'allowed' to have access to the 'list' and people daft enough to pay vastly inflated prices just to wear a watch from a particular brand. (swap Porsche for Rolex and car for watch, it's the same mug's game).
Rolex are charging a premium for owning one of their watches, but it seems there are plenty of mugs out there prepared to at least consider, paying a further £3000 (or maybe more!) to be 'allowed' to buy one of these watches.
If this was the Bear Pit, I'd say exactly what my response to this is, but as it's not I'll stick to 'jog on'...
M
At least you know where you stand with my Rolex AD!
Dont think that’s a very good analogy, not many other cars that can get close to a Porsche in terms of driver envolvement and certainly not at a lot less.
Although If you only worried about getting from A to B then don’t bother buying a Porsche, if all you care about is what the time is don’t bother buying a Rolex.
Maybe, but you can buy a marginally lesser Porsche for a fraction of the price of the special editions.
M
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Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
We would put them in the window if we could but that would involve people not ringing from every corner of the UK wanting these great watches.
And that is why we try to look after our very small corner of the UK and our local customers. It's the only way in this modern, internet-fuelled world. And bear in mind that anyone wanting to buy a Datejust, Perpetual or Day-Date can see them in the window like the good old days!!
Either way it doesn't give that crook any excuse for behaving in that way.
So, out of interest - would I be able to buy a Rolex sports model from your dealership? I'd be happy to travel if so. Or is it the same as the response I got from Goldsmiths, that if you haven't bought a Rolex from us, you can't buy a Rolex from us (etc. etc.).
You could solve the internet/ringing from all 4 corners by making it walk in only, the crux being, how does an individual, new to the brand perhaps, actually facilitate a purchase with out going to the grey market (where the watches available have all come via a dealer, probably sold to their regular customers)
Veblen goods innit, they do things to weak minded people.
Marginally lesser Porsche for a fraction of the cost? Which one? Most new Porsche limited additions actually aren’t more expensive than a base car specced up, not sure what a special edition is Unless you are talking about something like a GT3 RS that’s a very special edition and you can’t compare it with a base Cayman.
But a Rolex OP will just tell the same time as a Daytona, no Chrono but that isn’t why anyone really buys a Daytona.
Isn't it better if we move away from the whole list pricing philosophy and maybe adapt the Japanese model of selling at whatever the market will bear?
FFS Mick
ADs aren't passing Daytonas onto greys
They will be getting sold onto private individuals who then sell them onto greys.
As I have said-the revenue loses nothing..
Doesn't make it right of course but the loss of tax is a non reason
Your putting up as lack of ethical behaviour is a crock of shit too Mick.
I know plenty who would do that deal that I would have absolutely no reservations about dealing with.
The people I would have reservations dealing with are the ones who would do the deal and then report the guy.
Worst of both worlds right there.
Last edited by Hood; 1st April 2018 at 02:11.
Gt4s sold for a massive premium. Sure list isnt far above the soecced up price, but as here, getting on the list was/is nigh impossible, which was my point.
A GT4 is better than a Cayman, but how much better?
M
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Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
There is a massive difference between a private individual buying from an AD and flipping it onto a grey dealer than what there is in a sales person demanding a tax free bung from a customer in order to sell him a watch.
Also if someone did the deal and reported it to the police, then they have themselves committed an offence of entrapment, so they would never do it.
We all have our moral values and I would never buy or sell to any individual who asks for or gives a bung. If you would, then that is down to you but men are often judged by the company they keep.
You couldn’t spec up a base cayman to close to a GT4 and yes people are now trying sell them on at big premium but the list Price wasnt bad and definitely way better than base cayman, the first time they allowed the Cayman to out perform a current 911 and last performance na flat 6 Cayman.
Situation is bit different to Rolex as dealer has allocation of say 5 and after that
there will be no more, they tend to ring best customers even when there is a hint of one of these really limited editions coming up and ask if they want to go on the list.
If this sale would be a fraud, a crime, does anyone believe the police would be interested? You can barely get them to investigate a burglary.
Assuming of course the salesman then correctly declares the £3k to revenue to pay income tax on it.....
The point I was trying to make was that Porsche released a very limited number of a car a bit better than the more widely available models, only allowed access to preferred clients and then the price went sky high for lightly used examples.
As with the Daytona, lightly used examples sell for far above the list price that only a select few could buy at...
Really not THAT different at all, is it?
M.
This is to buy a watch a luxury item,not to feed your children or stop your house being repossessed.
People need to get some perspective.
A bit better is very much under stating it and as I pointed out it was limited run, realistically they were gone before they were officially announced.
Difference is they are still making Daytona’s even if they are hard to get, and really it’s an aesthetics thing with the Daytona they make a bunch of watches you can walk down most high streets and buy tomorrow which will tell the time just as well as the Daytona.
A bit more than aesthetics in the case of Porsche
Last edited by TBKBABAB; 1st April 2018 at 17:00.
Not saying I doubt the OP here but it seems very strange. There’s been a lot of replies and opinions and to me the story seems a bit odd.
High street retail is certainly struggling compared to online and even in the sought after world of Rolex, you still have very high overheads and and need to maximise your sales. Whether it’s right or wrong Rolex AD’s have a very limited number of ‘extremely’ sort after pieces to sell every year and the Daytona would be at the top. To me the store owner/manager would be maximising those 2 or 3 pieces and by that I mean it would go to existing high spending customers or the person that will buy xyz to go alongside it.
If the story all rings true, firstly it’s quite dishonest and immoral, but secondly it’s poor business practice and it’s the second bit I find hard to get to grips with. Just not convinced by any of this. Just my opinion of course.
Would not accept such a practice. Very dishonest & would not like to deal with such a person.
Now, if they said the RRP is £9100, but we are selling it for 12K and was shown clearly as such on the receipt, I wouldn’t have a problem with it.
I also find it hard to believe the manager would let this specific model be sold by his salesman to anybody he wishes to
Maybe the AD's are selling themselves the watches and selling them as Grey's to fools willing to pay a premium.
I run a Security Company and we deal with the Police, the CPS, the courts on occasion and also police licensing. Now we cover the whole of the U.K. and have some pretty serious ASB issues at the present with the lack of Police on the beat. I can assure you that unless you walk in with every single part to a case such as this they will not be interested in the slightest???!!! We have to jump through hoops even when knives and guns are involved because unless they are pretty much guaranteed a conviction they can’t afford to investigate whether some rich dude is paying some less rich dude some money so he can jump up a waiting list??
Don’t get me wrong it’s a crime but so is the last time my guards were attacked by 20 youths with weapons and we have BWC(body warn camera) footage with sound plus witnesses and CCTV, we even catch the guys yet they still get away with it!
If you do want to tell the authorities then I would get video or written proof although that still only proves intent so it would have to actually happen for a proper conviction! I’m not just talking legalities, I’m talking about the actual practise of submitting the crime and having enough proof to process!
If you feel so aggrieved I would take it to the Head Office of the outlet then I would also take it to Rolex, as stated above I wouldn’t bother the Police unless your willing to take it all the way and have the case wrapped up for them before they take it on! The fact that something is actually illegal, I’m afraid in this country with the constraints the Police are under is irrelevant as they will just add it to the list and then get back to the serious crime that endangers “life”.
I for one as said in other posts, am out of the whole buying new Rolex game, especially sports?!? I love a sub as much as the next guy and have had a few but it’s not worth the scramble and stress for me? Buying and collecting watches is not a job it’s a hobby for most so surely unless an item is limited and a rediculous price it should be available?
If it was me and it’s all as you state then I would tell the Head Office of the dealer and then tell Rolex but that’s me!
Moral of the story I suppose is, don’t let these kind of dealers or Rolex win their little game!
Chris
No, mate, there are two of us. I could cheerfully own a Datejust, OP or a day- date!
I wouldn’t consider buying a Rolex Sports from the current range either. Never ceases to amaze me how folks lust after them and I’m convinced the limited availability thing helps to fuel the desire.
Having to beg and grovel for the privilege of buying one is laughable, but bunging the salesman 3 grand takes it to another level!
It’s all gone crazy......
Paul
Despite the comments here about morality or the lack of it, the one thing you have to give Rolex credit for is that they are certainly enhancing the value of the brand. I suspect that we can expect a few prices increases over the forth coming years that will exceed inflation.
I don’t see how grubby story’s like this enhance the brand it makes a lot of us dislike the brand even more.
They're a business after all.
I have bought in the in the past from a grey dealer as BNIB and the papers were undated. I have often wondered if they split the difference from retail to grey price.....
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
If you want a PP watch, who are probably number 1 on the most coveted list, you will find them very hard to get and they don't suffer from being disliked.
I suppose the harsh reality is that if you don't like Rolex, you won't buy one and that is one less person on the waiting list, so once again a win - win for Rolex.
Also please remember the "grubbiness" that you refer to is down to the grubby behaviour of one salesperson who should at least be fired and at best prosecuted.
Rolex make excellent and durable watches and I suspect they are successfully attempting to drive up prices closer to Patek over a period of time and if I was in their shoes, I would be doing exactly the same.
Nah mate makes people want it even more!!! More hype the better !! (for the brand, not for us).
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If you would pay that for a second hand Daytona do it, you will have a bargain and the sales assistant will have earned a good bonus. It isn't stealing, no one is suffering here.
Rubbish. It appears to be quite illegal though not stealing.
I decided a long time ago Rolex isn't for me.
I am not a fan of their design, I cannot be bothered with all this BS about being able to buy one, get on a list etc.
I will happily limit myself to what I like at a not so extremely overpriced level.
Exactly I walked into the IWC boutique in Munich they show me a watch,I like it,I buy it.
No lists,no holding onto papers,no bs,just very good service and a watch I am over the moon with.
It’s not dignified begging to buy something that’s essentially for pleasure.
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