Reply With QuoteIn answer to your question ...Yes they are as bad as each other. Had a C250d and a 330e and both pretty hopeless on ice/snow
I'm due to change my company car in May next year.
I currently have a Mercedes AMG line C300h partial hybrid.
It's an auto RWD only with 201hp at the rear wheels, 230+hp if I count the electric motor boost.
My budget wouldn't stretch to 4Matic 4x4 although I could have replaced the "Premium" package with the 4Matic I suppose although I had a good reason not to...I didn't want to.
In wet weather and certainly in icy weather and snow it handles like a pig on stilts or perhaps on a good day like a baby Giraffe.
If it's wet the back end is constantly feeling like it wants to become my front end and I often get pedestrians holding up score boards in response to my double back spinning pirouette manoeuvre as I try to accelerate from a junction.
In other words I have no confidence in it's handling when it's wet or icy and end up driving like an old geezer through fear of losing it.
Don't get me wrong, I know that in bad conditions we should all drive accordingly and I always do however, the C300h seems to slide around regardless unless I drive that slow that milk floats flash me to get past!
I'm now looking at alternatives and I am very keen on the new BMW 3 series coming out next year.
However I can hear you all screaming "but it's also a RWD you stupid orangey person".
I know it is, but it is also very nice although equally unlikely to be in budget with X-Drive unless I specify down from MSport to ....well something less nice.
I have also looked at the fairly new 5 series but again it's RWD.
Question, all else being equal i.e. both RWD only and of equal comparable power and size, are BMW RWD any better in the wet or ice than a Mercedes C class?
Are there any BMW 3 series drivers who can honestly say how they feel it handles in poor wet/icy/snowy conditions?
My alternatives are either an Audi A5 Sportback or a new 2018 A6 which are both FWD and therefore I would not need the 4x4/Quattro option or at least not as much....would I?
Perhaps a new Volvo S90? Another FWD or even the new S60 although the S60 (not to be confused with the V60 estate) will not be available in diesel, only petrol or hybrid (so I'm told by Volvo and they should know).
Last edited by Orange Peel; 30th November 2018 at 14:19.
In answer to your question ...Yes they are as bad as each other. Had a C250d and a 330e and both pretty hopeless on ice/snow
Unless you put the correct wheels/tyres on. Compare your options with the one's on the German websites. They are not suckered into the ludicrous low profile format we are (despite having better roads in Europe) and they also choose tyres appropriate to the season.
Try a smaller wheel diameter with something like Michelin Crossclimates and then see how the car behaves (rather than looks in the showroom).
I recently owned an Audi S4 with 19" wheels. In the UK, you couldn't buy 18" wheels for it, yet they were standard in Germany with 19 being an option.
Thanks, however this is a company lease car for 3 years.
Changing wheels and having winter tyres are not (sadly and frustratingly) an option.
My company like most others in the UK do not recognise the necessity for winter tyres.
I can specify the car within manufacturers options but that's it.
To be honest, it handles crap even in normal, wet weather never mind icy or snowy conditions.
Surely I shouldn't need special winter tyres just for rainy, wet weather.
You must be driving like you stole it for it to be swapping ends in the wet?
You'd think so wouldn't you but alas no.Originally Posted by IAmATeaf
It eats rear tyres as well but they're fairly new at present so it can't be worn tyres,
Just chuck a sack of coal in the back and you’ll be fine.
Although I have never done a 360 or even a 180 I have had the back out 45 plus on occasion if I blip it too much in the wet.
Does not feel safe.
Winter. Tyres.
I'm just off to have mine fitted to my new last night AMGC43 and would not have a car now that I don't use them on.
I drove my old 911 (minimal driver aids, big chunk of weight behind the back wheels) back from Hannover airport to a small middle of nowhere German town in driving snow on winter tyres and it didn't miss a beat or feel remotely scary. There will be some on here that tell you how, as driving gods, they don't believe in winter tyres but they're talking out of their hats. Anything below 7 degrees and they'll outperform summer tyres irrespective (wet, snow, ice whatever). My BMW owning friend (whose dad owns said tyre going I'm off to) drove a BMW 330 in all weathers using winter tyres and he had no issues with a RWD car either.
I have experience of a 3 Series (any many other RWD cars) in snow and/or freezing condition. It is simply not safe when on summer tyres. The C class would be no better or worse I would expect.
I do get why someone on a lease doesn't want the expense of shelling out for safe tyres but if you can't shell out then at least buy something using FWD which will wash out at the front in low grip conditions and not throw you off the road backwards. You may still crash but at least the airbags will help in that circumstance as you will hit the tree full on instead of sideways. I am not convinced 4WD on summer tyres is a particular benefit either when the weather gets really grim though I guess it would at least add stability in cold and wet. The problem is the extra traction gets you moving but there is no extra braking over 2WD so in some cases it makes it worse.
There is only one real solution, well 2: Winter or All Season tyres. Then the problem goes away.
Last edited by Padders; 30th November 2018 at 15:37.
Given you can't change the tyres (I had same problem with my company car - crazy) - I'd not discount the car and genuinely consider some Autosocks.
Granted my cc was a FWD Golf GTE but it was awful in the snow - socks on, it was phenomenal.
About £40 a set, just change every year. Quite an easy fit once you get the knack and easy to carry.
Appreciate this may not help if doing regular driving/distance but they were a god send for me when needed
I’ve had Audi A6 and Volvo V60 FWDs as company cars for precisely the winter driving reason, and can confirm the Volvo was much better than the Audi in snow. Not surprising given its heritage.
If you can’t go 4matic, XDrive or winter tyres, then another brand is your only option
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I’ve had Audi A6 and Volvo V60 FWDs as company cars for precisely the winter driving reason, and can confirm the Volvo was much better than the Audi in snow. Not surprising given its heritage.
If you can’t go 4matic, XDrive or winter tyres, then another brand is your only option
Surely the Mercedes has traction control?
Andy
Wanted - Damasko DC57
I have a C220d company car and managed 54,000 miles out of a set of rear tyres and I really don't hang about. It's not great in the snow and living in a rural village I just work from home rather than risking travelling, plus I have a Defender if I really need to go out. I had a 3 series before the C-Class and it was much of a muchness, rear wheel drive with little weight over the rear axle.
It's all down to tyres as mentioned above, but like you I can't opt for winter rubber on a company car. We bought a set of winter wheels and tyres for my other half's C63, which she ran for 4 years without ever getting stuck. Now we're in the process of buying a set of winters for her new RS3.
The BMW 225xe has internal combustion engine driving the front & electric drive to the rear.
Might be be worth a look ?
z
Yes of course but tell that to the back end!
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Not familiar with that one, I'll take a look.
Thanks
Just had a look, too small and too...well family type thingy.
Thanks for the suggestion though
Quiet like the look of this although it's just a Passat inside.
The 4Motion would be in budget also
https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new/art...d=&product_id=
How abouttaking the car allowance and buying something you can use and put winter tyres on? If you need to be mobile all year round and safe in all weathers, you need the right tools for the job. You don't see ballerinas performing in hiking boots....
Car allowance is not an option I'm afraid.
If you stick to BMW or Merc on Summer tyres, things will be as explained by others. If you really fancy one of those brands/types, you can always go out and look for a set wheels/tyres on your own expense. Steel wheels + winter tyres are a common sight here on European roads. Won't cost an arm and a leg. And remember, you can always sell the wheels after a few years. They're always in demand!
Having said that, if snow and sleet are really worrying you, I would consider a shift to another brand; perhaps not German anymore... Volvo X series, Subaru Outback, a bunch of Lexii etc.
Why do people continue to conflate winter tyres with snow & ice? You must have read enough times that they greatly improve vehicle handling in wet conditions as well as when there is actually snow on the ground. Given that we have several months of cold wet weather they are of benefit for more than just a couple of days.
OP: you've been told both cars are rubbish in the snow. If you really want to keep yourself & your family safe buy your own rims & winter tyres & store the others.
Sounds brilliant. You can't beat a twitchy RWD car in the rain and snow.
"A man of little significance"
And he is spot on. As a bonus it makes hanging the tail out on the dry easier too.
If there is no summer-winter change option then spec winter for all year round or pay for a set of steelies yourself.
Last edited by Huertecilla; 30th November 2018 at 18:45.
I suspect it’s the combination of RWD and hybrid that’s making things difficult. The worst car I’ve ever driven in snow was a Prius, even worse than the BM 320d that replaced it. The trouble was the big lump of torque from the electric motor kicking in from zero revs - the traction control just didn’t know what to do when there was minimal grip
Neither is great - my worst was a Mazda MX6 Sport - front wheel drive, no weight over the driven wheels and too much power. Like pushing string up a hill
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
A completely new set for a 3 Series with 16" wheels and tyres starts at 735 euros here in The Netherlands. And no they ain't sexy alloys. Just plain, black steel wheels.
In essence, it is very simple: you drive an expensive high-performance car, you need to put aside some money for items you would like to have added to the car. Even if it is a company car. Like a roof rack, towbar and here: winter wheels + tyres. Insurance and safety cost money.
These tyres not only take care of tail-happiness (which can be fun like Foxy100 says!), but they reduce stopping distance as well and THAT is perhaps a bigger safety feature.
Menno
I've had a lot of BMWs, mostly 3 and 5 series, so can quite happily say, they aren't great in really bad conditions.
I used to leave the car on the drive when it snowed, but that changed when I got a set of winter tyres, as others have said, they are fantastic, you can drive on pretty much anything, even when fwd cars can't.
If you buy them from BMW, they will store them for you and they even fit them and vice versa. I'm not sure what Mercedes do, but I imagine it's something similar.
Isn't that just the worst car you've ever driven? :-)
Hmmm, that makes some sense.
It does feel like the rear end cant handle the power, not because it's super powerful but because of the sudden/instant power delivery due to the electric motor!
Mind you, regardless of acceleration it still feels twitchy when cornering in the wet.
I had a bag of gravel over each wheel arch in the boot of my 530, really did help
Remember this? Now that was a car that needed a sack of sand in the front. It was a lethal little car!
But traction it had. I co-owned the orange Rally I with a friend.Remember this? Now that was a car that needed a sack of sand in the front. It was a lethal little car!
Remember we set the rear wheels with ludicrous camber.
They were all the thing though where I lived because of the antics of Rob Slotemaker and Jan Lammers.
Also they need to be seen in perspective; RR was rather normal at the time: Volkwagen did not know how to do anything else yet and the Fiat 850 was omnipresent p.e. My mom went from a 600 to a Beetle.
My first wholly owned one was a Beetle too.
No issues driving it on the snow and roads were not cleaned as they are now. Where we lived it was all pavement, even cobbles; quite an event when the main road to/fro the neighborhood got tarmac.
Ergo; slippy most of the year and RR had traction.
Ditto that era in Spain untill fairly recently; till the EU funded the development of the roads to open up remote areas. Mostly camino, compacted gravel an RR was, still is, a solution to traction issues on that. The isue of the RR was, and still is, suspension travel which makes the R4 and C15 such admirable camino gobblers.
Anyway; thanks for bringing the old Simca up!!!
Going out to Morrison’s in my 3 series, it’s raining out so wish me luck
Don´dt be a sissy man. All is relative. I went down to the village this morning: Hard southern tarmac, wet olive season mud, júst frozen by -4 in the mountains here. In my MR2 on too wide summah wubbah...Going out to Morrison’s in my 3 series, it’s raining out so wish me luck
I drive my v8 m3 all year and it’s only bad when there is actually snow on the ground. I think a progressive torque curve helps in the cold/wet. Obviously if you mash the throttle it will spin faster than you can blink! I had a 330d a few cars ago and that was much worse - loads of torque was fun but you had to be awake.
If you’re concerned I would go front or all wheel drive- or just don’t go out on the few days every couple of years that’s it’s bad.
Well, on the contrary, I have a 330d xdrive with winter tires and it's super capable in slippery conditions.
I would question that if you’re struggling with a modern 200bhp RWD car with the full plethora of driving aids in wet or slippery conditions.
That possibly your driving style is in need of modification.
Quite a few years ago I had an E Class. Loved the car, it was so comfy to drive.
Driving home late one night, I hit some black ice and spun the car around 5 or 6 times, before coming to a stop side ways half way up a hill. It scared the hell out of me and I was very lucky that nothing was coming in either direction really. A few days later it snowed and I couldn't even get the damn car off the drive, with or without traction control on. That was my last rear wheel drive car.
I sold the Merc and purchased an R36, kept that for a few years and now have an S3 and a Defender.
I realise its only a short period of time that the weather can affect us, but I doubt I would ever go back to a rear wheel drive car personally.
This video appeared on my feed last week. Very interesting comparison of 4x4 on normal tyres vs 2wd on winter tyres. The 4x4 was next to useless in comparison and the (lack of) braking distance was scary!
https://youtu.be/atayHQYqA3g
That's an interesting YT channel! Thanks for that. On a vid of that channel, perhaps the answer how to overcome the extra costs of forking out money for an extra set of wheels/tyres for your BMW (somehow that sounds like a 'contradictio in terminus'...). Michelin's CrossClimate looks to be the answer.
M
I've run CrossClimates on my Saab for about 18 months and can't fault them. We had a pretty major dump of snow here last March and the FWD Saab was perfectly capable in anything other than the big icy hills. Their wear rate on tarmac is fine too, which I was a little worried about.
My only criticism, and its minor, is there a little more road noise with them.
Saabs and snow... I always have the feeling that Saabs drive better in the snow! At least my 96s did (and do*) and certainly my 99s! The quirky narrow tyres of the 96 and the 99 (165x15), the heavy steering-when-dry and cumbersome handling-when-dry all fit into place the moment snow starts to fall.
Back on topic: what always amazes me is the fact that the correct tyres really make the difference when it comes to braking distance. That alone should be enough to convince anyone.
* Saab line-up over the years:
- Saab 96
- Saab 99
- Saab 99 EMS
- Saab 99 Turbo I (yes!)
- Saab 90
- Saab 9-3 (2x)
- Saab 96 1970 one owner - original Swedish car with now 60K kms on the odo
I must admit that my current Saab 96 is in hibernation for 4 yrs now. Simply a lack of time to drive it...
4wd makes no difference for braking.
In all ´discussions´about FWD, RWD, AWD thé limiting factor remains that all have four wheels, four rubber contact patches. It is thóse that set the limits.
How the drive is distributed does makes a difference but that is vastly affected by the weight distribution and suspension design/quality to name but two aspects. Regardless of all that, ceterus paribus, make better suited tyres thé difference.
I think JohnnyE was referring to the longer braking distance without the 'season' tyres and not referring to the 4x4 system as such. Obviously, you are correct when you break down the pros and cons of 4x4s and the influence of rubber making contact with the road surface.
Menno
SAAB 99 Turbo - fantastic carSaabs and snow... I always have the feeling that Saabs drive better in the snow! At least my 96s did (and do*) and certainly my 99s! The quirky narrow tyres of the 96 and the 99 (165x15), the heavy steering-when-dry and cumbersome handling-when-dry all fit into place the moment snow starts to fall.
Back on topic: what always amazes me is the fact that the correct tyres really make the difference when it comes to braking distance. That alone should be enough to convince anyone.
* Saab line-up over the years:
- Saab 96
- Saab 99
- Saab 99 EMS
- Saab 99 Turbo I (yes!)
- Saab 90
- Saab 9-3 (2x)
- Saab 96 1970 one owner - original Swedish car with now 60K kms on the odo
I must admit that my current Saab 96 is in hibernation for 4 yrs now. Simply a lack of time to drive it...
OK, I should have stated that I meant proper BMWs, with RWD, the xdrives are much better.
Of course they're an option, they're an option you have to pay for.
BMW on run flats tend to be marginally worse than Merc. As everyone has said, the only answer in COLD conditions is winter tyres. It is not about snow, it is the ability of the compound to cope with variations in temperature and wetness. Snow is a 2 or 3 times a year issue.
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