Reply With QuoteCheers Pitch, always good to get a second opinion.Originally Posted by Pitch3110
Hope the nan turns out well too!
Question for the afficionados here if you could help please?
How do you mix your wetter (e.g 65% hydration and above) doughs? Are these all hand done or by use of a mixer? If hand mixed, how do you avoid the sticking to hands for the initial phase?
I have normally done 60% hydration, but tried 67% today by hand and it was very sticky/tricky comparatively.
Cheers Pitch, always good to get a second opinion.
Hope the nan turns out well too!
I simply mix them with a spoon.
For the stretching and folding, I have recently changed to doing it with wet hands rather than flouring my hands.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Goodo CM
The nan ......... it was amazing, bloody surprising.
6 + 2 RT fermentation.
That looks fantastic.
Would you share the dough recipe? How do you stretch the dough - rolling pin, or like a pizza?
Great, will give both a go.
Here goes Raffe and all.
1. I used the green Alistons EB yeast which I mixed with 125 ml of warm water and tsp of raw cane sugar and left to froth.
2. In my KitchenAid (always use this for dough) I added 300g Caputo Blue and 50g of strong white bread flour, 2 tsp raw cane sugar, ½ tsp of baking powder, I tbsp of nigella seeds and mixed the dry ingredients together.
3. I then added the frothed yeast mixture, 30g of melted butter, 150ml natural yogurt and two good squirts of honey.
4. I mixed this quite wet mixture for 10 minutes. As it began to come together, I added a further dessert spoon of bread flour, it just seemed to wet.
5. Keep with it and it will come together but it will remain very hydrated and it did not handle like normal 60-62% blue. I literally pulled it into a loose ball, lump and popped in my oiled box.
6. Left the dough to ferment for 6 hours at room temperature and then balled and placed onto oiled try for a further 2 hours. It wasn’t as must balling as just bringing together with wet hands, the dough was still very hydrated. About 100g balls.
7. Lifted each ball out, lightly floured and used a rolling pin to roll quite thin in teardrop shapes. The first one was too think and didn’t quite cook so do roll them very thin they do puff up well.
8. I cooked these in a heavy base pan which was dry and on a pretty high heat. After each one was cooked I wiped the pan with a wet cloth to remove any excess flour. It does of course burn.
Taste wish they were sweet and absolutely amazing and even having them cold later was as good as anything from a restaurant, they really are that good.
Have fun chaps and enjoy.
Pitch
Last edited by Pitch3110; 19th April 2020 at 09:48.
Pitch did you cook in the kitchen oven or is the pizza oven up and running?
Excellent pal well spotted I didn't even mention how I cooked them....
I used a dry high heat skillet and then wiped it with a wet cloth after even one was cooked. The flour burns so best to keep the pan real clean.
I ordered all the flue for the Clementi last week and it should be with me Tuesday. Its sunny here on the east coast today so log splitting and then on the roof to start stripping back for the flue and flashing.
Enjoy your Sunday
Pitch
Instead of wiping with a wet cloth, slice an onion in half and wipe clean with that instead***
*** tip from my mum (and hers)
Yep certainly try that buddy, cheers.
Pitch
Decided to bite the bullet and a Koda is on the way.
A chance some of the experts could post up a good recipe for a simple dough?
Would be planning to cold prove first.
I'm all for experimenting, but I have hungry kids and I must not disappoint!
I need to top up my flour. Would you recommend I order Caputo Red or Blue? It will be a 25kg sack so I am mindful I want flexibility to use it for other breads too.
My understanding is that Red is a stronger flour. I am guessing Very Strong compared to Strong for the Blue. I have been using Blue to date.
Blue is great for 24h doughs, maybe a bit longer. If you want really long proofing and very high hydration, have a look at the red ones.
Cheers for the info.
My son asked for, and received one of those mini pizza ovens that sit on top of your bbq.
We use a simple dough recipe from BBC good food, a simple sauce of passata + salt + pepper + oregano, mix of mozarella and cheddar, maybe some other bits.
Tell you what, it's bloody lovely! SO much better than shop bought. Can also use the stone in our oven, great results, too.
Still no flour here. Weird how a while back there was an Allinson's factory doing bags of the stuff with no issues
A di Maria has flour, delivery next day. They are out of most 1kg bags, why not buy a 25kg bag and share with a friend/neighbour? They are only 30 quid including shipping cost and delivery is next day.
I just ordered Caputo, mozzarella and passata (plus drinks, etc) from these folks:
https://www.marcoalimentari.com/
You need a £70 minimum order, but can easily be topped up with wine, etc. 25KG for £21 is a great price. Delivery in London(M25)
Loving this thread. Looking at wood fired pizza ovens now, our friends have a pizza party oven which is great, but we want a more permanent fixture.
Has anyone come across or used this company or specific oven before?
https://www.thestonebakeovencompany..../mezzo-76-kit/
Looks a nice bit of kit.
You will see I had one of the Portuguese brick ovens which was great for the years I had it but was a bit random with the heat so when looking at the rebuild this year I decided on a lighter manufactured steel oven. I spent a great deal of time looking at various and gaining advice and it came down to the Clementi. There are cheaper un branded ovens of this ilk out there but the Clementi family have been making ovens since the 1970's, plus spares are readily available. Having said this I only completed the flue on Monday evening and it has not been used yet but I am sure it will be the nuts.
There are pictures here:
https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...zeria-re-build
Pitch
Pitch, that looks amazing!
Initial thoughts were really to go for a stone build, but seeing this, I’m going to check it out.
Will move this discussion to your build thread (now subscribed), but placement would be really similar, so it would be great if you could share any links to the supplier of the flue and to this oven.
Did exactly this yesterday!
Been looking at website regularly but had been out of stock until now. Bought the ‘blue’ but out of stock again now, hopefully mine ok.
Last edited by Kingstepper; 22nd April 2020 at 09:41.
Fired up (well gassed) the ooni 3 at the weekend and had my first go at sourdough pizza dough. Amazing.
18hr total RT prove and using bread flour a baker neighbour supplied for lockdown baking classes 14.9% protein so very strong, but made a great if slightly wet dough.
Last edited by joe1978; 22nd April 2020 at 10:15.
^ That looks ace!
Had a dough in the fridge since 5pm yesterday! First time using Caputo, so looking forward to where we end up.
I find I am making this up as I go along, so can anyone help me with these questions:
- When first mixing the dough, how long should you knead? (I know Raffe you don't knead at all, just mix and let it sit). I tend to mix with wooden spoon, then some stretch and fold for 5-7 mins, then cover and store (fridge or RT).
- When in fridge for let's say 18 hours...what do you do next? Take it out and let it sit for say 2 hours to get to RT? Then, cut into dough balls... At this stage, should you knead further? Is knock back required at any stage or any further kneading? Stretch and fold?
- Final stage, dough balls ready to use, let's say after further 2 hours...just stretch out and make the pizza?
Very basic questions and I find I change what I do every time. Results have been OK so far (except first attempt!).
I also use corn flour to help the pizza slide, any others doing this?
Looking forward to sharing some pictures later this evening.
Not going to comment on the kneading, you know my position.
I cut the dough and ball up immediately upon taking it out of fridge, has a nice surface tension like this. No kneading or explicit knocking back at that time, but there is some folding and gentle pressing required to form a nice dough ball. Then I let it sit and prove for 4 to 5 hours until I stretch and bake. I have found that an hour more or less doesn't make much difference (in a pizzeria, the dough balls are sitting for many hours at room temperature).
I use semolina for the stretching surface and peel, but I think corn flour should also be good. Important not to use white flour, as it burns in the oven and leaves a bitter taste.
Last edited by Raffe; 24th April 2020 at 11:48.
Thanks Raffe...all makes sense...I have made the mistake of using the plain flour on the stretching surface and had that sour burnt taste in the past!
Best of luck, looking forward to some pictures of real killer pizzas!
I will bake pizza with my daughter tonight. She loves to help daddy prepare and bake.
@joe1978 - that looks fantastic, spot on..
@Boss13 - Raffe has pretty much answered your questions and to add. For years I have knocked the dough up by hand but this year after reading up further I tried 15 and 18 minute machine mix and I found it so much better. I have RT proofed more and this is preferred for me. 18 hours and then turn out, ball, then place on an oiled tray, spray the tops of the balls and then cover with cling film. I have then used between 6 and 8 hours with no real difference.
As Raffe says no knocking back at all, and as you lift the balls from your tray handle with CARE.
Looking forward to seeing the results.
Pitch
After a great chat with Paul this morning (cheers buddy!) I’ve got my first dough pricing for the much anticipated inaugural cook on the Ooni.
Looking at when Paul gave me his recipe back in Aug 2018, I’ve finally got around to deciding & purchase one!
62% hydration
And the sauce with San Marzano tomatoes. Annoyingly my fresh basil died overnight to a dirty mush so dried it was in the sauce.
Best of luck. My Koda hopefully arrives next week (fingers crossed).After a great chat with Paul this morning (cheers buddy!) I’ve got my first dough pricing for the much anticipated inaugural cook on the Ooni.
Looking at when Paul gave me his recipe back in Aug 2018, I’ve finally got around to deciding & purchase one!
62% hydration
And the sauce with San Marzano tomatoes. Annoyingly my fresh basil died overnight to a dirty mush so dried it was in the sauce.
Great to chat Matt and looking good buddy, never thought I would see the day
Been in the garden all morning so running behind, now going to ball up.
Paul
After ordering I had radio silence until the day prior to delivery. Very strange way of doing it but very easy on lockdown.
Which did you go for?
I’m pre-heating ahead of the first attempt.
This is incase I screw up lol
Perhaps they would have worked out better!
Managed to tear both pizzas turning, first time it stuck to the oven base, second time the peel. First one tasted great, second was an interesting mix of burnt & raw!!
Is this where Zizzi’s got the idea for diet pizza with salad in the middle?
Wondering if technique or I have a sharp edge on the metal peel that needs a little sanding.
My first attempts looked the same, do not despair.
If they are sticking on the stone, you probably tried to turn too soon. Given the L-shaped burner, I would expect your oven to have a pretty even heat distribution? If you have to turn at all, wait until the bottom is properly baked. Also make sure you don't stretch it too thin. What was your dough ball size? I have gone up from 180 gram at the very beginning to 240 gram by now.
Your first effort with the Koda was better than mine!
Anyway, I am sure the pros will be along with proper info...but from a recent pizza newbie...
Is that the Peel without the handle? It came with my koda bundle and I find it is useless. I purchased a couple of additional peels online with handles - they are much easier to use when LAUNCHING the pizza.
Secondly, I now sprinkle corn flour on the peel and then put the pizza on the peel (pretty sure I read that tip on this thread)...that has ensured it launches fine. It also then doesn't stick to the peel. I also found it could stick in the oven floor, if there was a hole and the sauce leaked through the base...but again get it right on the peel and before you launch move the peel around and make sure the pizza moves around...if it does the rest should be plain sailing.
Good luck!
Been there, got the badge plus the one for turning the stone while hot with pliers and mole grips.
Agree with Raffe that your likely turning too soon. In my 3s, it’s ~25-35 seconds before the first turn with the stone temp north of 520°c
How long did you pre heat for?
Good to know! I've got a fairly good temp all over, the furthest from the L corner is probably 100C lower than the hot part, so good if I need it.
I think I may have gone too thin looking at videos and photos, went 220g balls & probably a 10"+ size, was a very thin base in the middle, so will try a thicker option / bigger ball weight next time. Was much more left in the crust edge that didn't rise, so think my yeast from the cupboard might be a little old now.
Cheers. Its their 'premium' one with holes & handle, but still a rip off! I have a wooden one for launching & used semolina as my way of lubricating the dough. Might have to look at other options to work out what was causing my issues. Was very self assured given how easy I got them into the oven, having read others' woes. That was then where my skill ran out!
Preheat was for 25 mins, 450C in the central part of the stone & then the burner down to low. Was trying to turn at 20-25s mainly due to the crust catching, so might lower the temp for a few mins before I put the pizza in.
Thanks for the feedback folks, greatly appreciated
Matt
Just in from a very successful family pizza evening. Roccbox outside in the garden.
Slight change from my usual routine mainly due to necessity. Local deli is on short hours and I didn't manage to get there in time but the village was having a bulk delivery of flour from Shipton Mill in Glos (https://www.shipton-mill.com) so I chanced a couple of bags of OO flour from there. The website doesn't state a protein level so a bit of a guess.
Also had a 42g block of fresh yeast, again a new thing for me. I decided to freeze the yeast and hope the web was right that it would be fine.
Thurs night I chipped off a gram of yeast into some warm water and a sprinkling of sugar and I left it on top of the warm but off Aga type thing. After 30 mins nothing, nada, not a bubble. Bugger thought I, that hasn't worked. Anyway I decided to carry on, made the dough and left it overnight. In the morning (Fri) there was definitely some change, a little volume increase. Left it whilst at work, came home 2 ish to find the bowl in the, really quite warm, greenhouse. Also to find the dough making a bid for freedom out of the bowl. SWMBO thought it might help and hadn't it just.
Anyway I knocked it back and balled it up for tonight.
Dough was nice and relaxed and made cracking bases; light , fluffy, chewy and high. Some of the best I've done.
I'm hoping I can replicate this but that I'll get the yeast out sooner. It may make making the dough a 4 days process but if they all come out like tonight then I can live with that.
Sorry I'm not one for photos of food but it was a very nice meal.
I've been reading this thread for the first time tonight. And I thought watches were complicated!
Sent through the ether by diddling with radio waves
Had a better night than me lol.
I was worried about getting it launched etc. Not the can’t turn the bugger.
Going to just do some cheap flour bases and get used to not screwing up !
Went for the standard Koda with slight paint imperfection/rub (or so they say). Just waiting to be contacted.After ordering I had radio silence until the day prior to delivery. Very strange way of doing it but very easy on lockdown.
Which did you go for?
I’m pre-heating ahead of the first attempt.
This is incase I screw up lol
I'm still cooking out on my Wild Goose. Doing it on the Kamado works, but is trickier due to less heat on top - I don't have the pizza attachment.
As a newbie, here are my observations on the Kamado and in general.
1) Put the deflector on the top of the grill bars and then place a trivet on the deflector and place the pizza stone on that. It raises the pizza higher so there is better heat over the top of the pizza.
2) The stacked with fuel Kamado was running at around 450c and due to heat distribution the first pizza was burnt on the bottom. The next was better, the third was perfect (but heat was dropping). Optimum kamado temp may be to run at 350-400c or so due to inherent limitations and temperature differentials or create a sacrifice dough for the first one and feed to the birds.
3) The kamado pizza still needs a turn as the air intake side tends to be hotter.
4) I am using 600ml round tubs to ball in. Easy to stack and find space in the fridge for colder proving. I then flip them over and let them drop the ball out to be shaped (see pic).
5) Don't be tempted to go with higher hydration too early on. Get practice first. The dough is much, much harder to handle and shape. 65% is way harder than 60%. Start lower and easy and work up. Higher hydration is easy to get too thin. You just get less leoparding with 60% hydration, but still get a great result.
6) As mentioned on here use wet hands for the initial stages of working the dough and balling.
7) As mentioned use of semolina helps with getting off the peel. I also build on a wooden peel (I have a thin metal one for turning and taking off). Just jiggle to make sure the pizza moves.
Pizza below (see pic) is 60% 3 day cold prove. My best yet, but seek to improve and speed up shaping and making. I have a 62% 2 day mid temperature prove on the go now (using my igloo cold box sat in the garden at around 12-14c). I took tips from this link (particularly for mixing and balling storage). He uses the Igloo and I am giving it a go too.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/in...html#msg202047
Last edited by mangoosian; 25th April 2020 at 21:53.
Fantastic write up, thank you.Went for the standard Koda with slight paint imperfection/rub (or so they say). Just waiting to be contacted.
I'm still cooking out on my Wild Goose. Doing it on the Kamado works, but is trickier due to less heat on top - I don't have the pizza attachment.
As a newbie, here are my observations on the Kamado and in general.
1) Put the deflector on the top of the grill bars and then place a trivet on the deflector and place the pizza stone on that. It raises the pizza higher so there is better heat over the top of the pizza.
2) The stacked with fuel Kamado was running at around 450c and due to heat distribution the first pizza was burnt on the bottom. The next was better, the third was perfect (but heat was dropping). Optimum kamado temp may be to run at 350-400c or so due to inherent limitations and temperature differentials or create a sacrifice dough for the first one and feed to the birds.
3) The kamado pizza still needs a turn as the air intake side tends to be hotter.
4) I am using 600ml round tubs to ball in. Easy to stack and find space in the fridge for colder proving. I then flip them over and let them drop the ball out to be shaped (see pic).
5) Don't be tempted to go with higher hydration too early on. Get practice first. The dough is much, much harder to handle and shape. 65% is way harder than 60%. Start lower and easy and work up. Higher hydration is easy to get too thin. You just get less leoparding with 60% hydration, but still get a great result.
6) As mentioned use of semolina helps with getting off the peel. I also build on a wooden peel (I have a thin metal one for turning and taking off). Just jiggle to make sure the pizza moves.
Pizza below (see pic) is 60% 3 day cold prove. My best yet, but seek to improve and speed up shaping and making. I have a 62% 2 day mid temperature prove on the go now (using my igloo cold box sat in the garden at around 12-14c). I took tips from this link (particularly for mixing and balling storage). He uses the Igloo and I am giving it a go too.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/in...html#msg202047
Time on my BGE vs this are amazingly different, although never got your leopard colouring.
Certainly vs the fuel to get the BGE hot enough, the Koda will be excellent I feel.
My balls [snigger] are in the 240-250g range and that gets me a ~12” base before shrinkage. Personally I’d try going hotter on the base if it will.
Also my experience is once the first one has torn and covered the stone the next one will too unless you turn the stone or burn it off till it’s ash.
Perhaps scrape as much towards the burner with the metal peel as you can and let it incinerate for ten before launching another one.
Running the Kamado on Marabou lumpwood gets it way hotter than previous burns for less fuel too (I clean out afterwards, but still have nearly half a basket left).
Anyway, as you, I'll soon be enjoying using a Koda :-)
I'll also practice with the peel on the Koda as it will be a shallower angle of attack than the Kamado and I can see mistakes to be learnt from.
I usually have some issues with dough sticking, either to the prep surface or the peel. I have found you need plenty of flour underneath. Don't skimp or it sticks. The problem is that you will be told that effects the hydration so don't add too much. Strictly that's right but sod that I want to eat it not do mathematics!
I have also found that lightly floured greaseproof paper is great for not sticking. I now make 2 or 3 at once and cook in succession and then actually sit down with everyone else which is much nicer.
Oh and I find a simple table fork is all I need to turn it. Whip it out with the peel, whizz it round 90 degrees and put it back in.
Last edited by DavidL; 26th April 2020 at 00:07.
I’d left it to turn to carbon, scraped it all off etc as there was no way the next one would have a hope of not sticking otherwise.
Wasn’t brace enough to try to turn the stone over at that temp!
I will go for bigger balls next time and see how that works out for me.
My wife has already mocked me this morning again for them.
The fork is a good idea thanks.
I’ve not tried anything different to my restaurant big k, will def give it a go as need to cook more things on the egg, default mode is as a smoker mostly.
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