Reply With QuoteOriginally Posted by Andyg
True although Horner may hold some responsibility for pressuring the race director into making a rash and unfair decision.
Max is fully responsible for his kamikaze driving throughout the season though.
The interesting thing about Max next season is that he may soon actually realise that his 'send it and expect the other car to yield' style actually cost him points this year, with penalties, having to give back places and a DNF.
Can he learn to overtake a similarly-paced car without it?
It Would be interesting if Mercedes tell Russell to drive like Max. I wonder how many first corner DNFs it would take before he realises that it’s better overall to cede the place occasionally?
I think this is why I don’t rate Max at this stage in his career. He’s clearly a fast and talented driver but not a mature one and not one with racercraft. We saw it when red bull weren’t as competitive and it “worked” because he wasn’t really competitive so if he crashed, so what.
However, seeing him fighting at the front with the same attitude was disturbing and if (big fat if considering the year) the stewards would’ve penalised him consistently for his transgressions, or he’d have come up against an equally unyielding competitor then I think Abu Dhabi wouldn’t have even been an issue as the title would’ve been lost to him long before.
(As an aside I caught the highlights again last night and watched max weave left to right all the way down the straight after overtaking Lewis, perfect example of inconsistent application of the rules).
If red bull have put all their development into 2021 as the rumours suggest then it will be interesting to see how Max handles the midfield and if his style changes.
The 20 on the track (and the 10 or so who're testing for the various teams) know each other inside out. Since they were 7, 8 or perhaps 10 y/o. They know exactly what to expect from the other. At that level, an adaption of the rules is something that can be done instantly. No worries about that.
Yesterday evening I took a chance to look back the last 10 mins or so. More or less starting at the moment Latifi hits the wall.
Bear with me and tell me if I'm correct.
In real time:
- Latifi hits the wall
- Safety car is out
- MV changes to red tyres
- Lewis can be heard over the radio with a very long 'beeeeeeeeeep'
- Lewis doesn't pit
- Lewis' crew goes back inside with a set of yellow tyres.
- Lewis calls: "This is unbelievable man! At this moment nothing strange has happened apart from the fact that Lewis didn't come in. So what was unbelievable?
- Bono (Lewis' engineer) says: "We would have lost track position".
The moment Latifi crashed: Perez was 12 secs behind Verstappen and 28 sec behind Lewis who was in the lead at that moment. After pitting, Lewis would have re-entered between Perez and Verstappen. (Not knowing that Perez would retire). He would have been second on fresh yellows.
Verstappen would have kept chasing on his whites, trying to close the gap between Lewis and himself during Lewis' pit time.
In case Verstappen had stayed out on whites, he would become the leader. And the SC would have 'catched' him as the #1 car. All cars in front of Verstappen would have passed the SC, because the leader follows the SC. In that case, Hamilton on yellows would have closed in after Verstappen, being #2 car without other cars between them!
That would have been a totally different last lap, or perhaps last two laps, because there are no cars to unlap. Hamilton on fresh yellows, Verstappen still on white tyres.
I think that Hamilton with all his experience and knowledge realized that it had become a mission impossible the moment he said: "It's unbelievable!" Not the first time this year that he rightfully questioned Mercedes tyre tactics.
Masi's call was iffy from a Mercedes point of view, but avoidable when Mercedes had done what Hamilton had expected they would do. He would have won.
Last edited by thieuster; 17th December 2021 at 10:24.
well he has just won the wdc with a “send it down the inside” overtake on the Last Lap , mind you hamilton left a gap wide enough to fit an artic through
Considering Max had 2 dnfs more than hamilton,was taken out by Bottas in the wet race and hamilton stole second place at imola when he was more than a lap behind ,
i dont think he will be too Bothered
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exactly this poor strategy from Mercedes. Not for the first Time
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I can’t disagree with most of this; hindsight is a wonderful thing!
The only observation I would make is that Max was on soft tyres (red), having changed from the whites during the earlier VSC.
Exactly. I hope Toto is finally realizing that the poor Mercedes strategy did cost Lewis his win in Abu Dhabi.
Toto plays angry at FIA, but should be angry at himself.
In hindsight yes, but no one was expecting Masi to make the unprecedented decisions that he did. Had he been consistent with his decision making (and that of Charlie before him), the race would have finished behind the safety car.
i agree hindsight is wonderfull, but all the teams had agreed before hand including toto, that where possible it was highly desirable for the race to end in a “green” condition (i.e. not under a Safety Car).
and thats what he got
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FTFY - The point is Masi had the opportunity to decide who would be WC and took it, nobody can say that he wouldn't have bowed to the same political pressure and taken a different approach if LH had pitted, it looked that cynical.
Nobody can say he would have taken a different decision. I think that MB can exert a significantly greater pressure than RBR, and has never been shy of trying. Menno's timeline is quite revealing.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
And nobody can say he can't given how irrational the decision he did make was. It's crazy to blame Mercedes for the omnishambles created by Masi
No it's not. Merc could have won this with a different tactic. Toto had agreed that the race should not end under SC if at all possible apparently, so tactics should have been to maximise chances and change tyres.
It doesn't make Masi's decision any better as I think it IS questionable. But Merc not bringing LH in as soon as SC was obvious was the smart bet that MB didn't take. Especially as MV would have had to do the opposite, stay in whites with LH right behind him in reds.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
And if Lewis pitted, Max didn't takes track position and they didn't clear the track with a lap to go or another car stopped / crashed...
Max still wins...
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Other than the 2 "if" above, CH was as aware as TW that the preferred course of action was to finish as a race. So yes, there is a possibility that Max would have won without racing but in percentage terms I'd say that LH's instinct to pit was a safer bet. And that is without using the hindsight that as he lost the WDC, ANY other tactic would have been better.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Exactly, if Lewis had pitted and the race finished behind the safety car, Mercedes would have looked very stupid.
I think the damage was already done, Mercedes were always in going to be in an impossible situation if a safety car happened at that point of the race. I just wonder if Lewis would have been able to defend better if he'd changed his tyres under the earlier virtual safety car.
Last edited by watchcollector1; 17th December 2021 at 13:03.
Is everybody arguing about how many angels you can race on the head of a pin?!
I know there are a number on here who like to think that Merc didn’t have the confidence in Lewis to overtake Max had he pitted for new tyres but just look at the race and past races.
It took Lewis more than 1 lap to get passed Perez who defended fairly because Lewis doesn’t do a Max and shove it up the inside and expect the other driver to yield or get pushed wide. On the two occasions he did do it (silverstone) Max decided to turn in on him anyway resulting in Max ending up in the wall and the second time was successful against Leclerc proving that it can be done without pushing another driver off the track.
Max has on a number of occasions this year gone in deep and pushed Lewis off the track. He would have done exactly the same in Abu Dhabi. He has form for it.
And remember, if they both fail to finish, Max wins anyway.
Almost sounds like you know better than an F1 champion about how they should drive lol.
And in theory Merc could and should have won with the same tactic. They had hobsons choice;
Stay out - you win if finishing under safety car, you win if he decides there isn't time to un-lap the field so resumes with track position and your only challenger behind four other cars, you lose if Masi goes off piste with a new iteration
Come in - you lose if you finish under a safety car, or you have the risk of needing to overtake someone already proven to do "whatever it takes" to defend his track position
So no, I don't agree that coming in was the "smart bet", hindsight is wonderful but they placed their chips on what was probably the safer option and lost
Not if Max had taken Lewis out.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Did Max get penalised for parking on Lewis head in Monza? No, thought not.
The stewards would have to prove inconclusively that Max deliberately caused a collision and that would be extremely difficult to do.
didnt he get a 3 place grid drop, athough he took the new engine and started at the back of the grid
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The key is that Merc had no way of knowing how quickly Latifi’s car would be cleared and racing would resume. The decision Toto had to make was at the moment between the accident and when the SC took to the track. After that, once Lewis was behind SC the option was gone. No hindsight necessary, and Lewis instinct was better that Toto’s simulations.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
True.
What amazes me is that everyone points at Verstappen as the antagonist when it comes to driving. Nearly every single thing that he's accused of, is as if he'd learned it from LH himself. Brake check in SA? Check Baku 2017 between Vettel and LH. Hard white tyres vs soft red tyres? Check Austria 2020. Iffy championship? Check 2008 with Timo Glock. The difference between LH and MV is that Hamilton has done the same things over a longer period.
I'm sure that MV would not have been crowned as WC had he run LH off track. He would have faced points deduction, as said during the briefing in the days before the race.
It's of all ages and it depends on who you prefer to see as a winner. Nothing new, nothing has changed.
Do a little deeper research please. Lewis Hamilton DID NOT brake check Vettel in Baku.
But then, that’s not going to fit your narrative is it.
A little more research shows that you're right. It still leaves the other two examples. A little more research showed that there's more but I haven't mentioned and used for 'my story'.
TBH, I cannot blame LH for that what happened. He's on the track for ages and still one of the greatest of all time. With thousands of kms under his wheels during racing, there's a lot that can and will happen when you want to win. Some things he did on purpose - that he later regretted. I give him that. And a lot has happened with the team stirring the cauldron's spoon as well (to translate a Dutch phrase into English).
Still, I don't think that MV is worse in that. After all - and I've written that before- the choice of the drivers on the grid who they want(ed) to see as the new champion was not in favour of LH. Most of them have been competing against each other since they were kids. They know each other very, very well. Not only their driving but also their character. (in this case, MV's) If MV's peers really think that he's a 'bad boy', they would never speak out in favour of him. He has no bad reputation among his professional colleagues/opponents. His bad reputation is only in the minds of a number of people who watch racing and are not professionals.
Glock in 2008, what are you suggesting there. Because Timo Glock is adamant he didn’t slow down to let Lewis win.
I can’t comment on Austria 2020 because I don’t know the incident you are talking of.
Let me be clear here. I take nothing away from Max as this years champion. Even before this final race he had won more races this year than Lewis and he did nothing wrong in the last race either. My issue is with Masi. He knew what he was doing and in the eyes of pundits, fans and drivers (not all drivers) what he did was wrong.
He had three other choices which would have been far less controversial but he chose not to use them.
On that, we fully agree!
Last edited by thieuster; 17th December 2021 at 16:25.
You are right Australia 94. Another great FIA scandal.
But you are also right that Max didn’t nothing wrong, and had he won fairly and squarely on track then I would have applauded him. Alas he didn’t, actually he was getting thrashed, just as he had in Brazil, Qatar, and SD until Masi got involved at the bequest of RedBull. Don’t forget that it was Horner who pleaded for “just one lap of racing” (knowing that Max had fresh tyres). It’s stuff like this that makes me so angry about what happened.
As for engineering results, I believe it happened in 2007 (because Ferrari was going to sue unless one of their drivers won it), to placate McLaren I suspect something similar happened in 2008, just as I suspect it happened in 2010 with RedBull. I believe Mercedes did something similar in 2016, but that was some internal BS. At the start of 2021, numerous people were saying the RedBull (Max) was going to win, hence the change in the regs (to level the pitch), the lack of FIA action to address the RBR limbo wing until race 10, the lack of action to tighten up the tyre guidelines until mid season, the fact that the only doubleheader happened to be on RBR’s home track, the Spa non-race, etc. Now I know I sound like a conspiracist, but if it looks like duck, walks like a duck, then perhaps, maybe it’s a duck.
So I am pretty sure Mercedes wouldn’t have given up on their appeal unless they were offered something in return. 2022 will be the proof of the pudding, but I very much doubt Max and RBR will get the same “flexibility” they received in 2021.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Many drivers (past and present) have spoken about Max’s borderline “aggressive driving style”, don’t forget he managed to take out Vettel 6 times in his first season. But perhaps he has received less negative feedback this year from the grid because all his aggressive moves have been directed at one driver, because only one driver has been a threat to Max. Hence we all saw how Max tried to neutralise that threat in pretty much every race where he was along side Hamilton. Next year I imagine the complaints will again increase if he is battling against Norris, Russell, LeClerc, Sainz, etc as well as Hamilton (if he races) if he employs similar racing tactics.
Now I accept, some of the fans, want to see wheel banging racing, but these seem to be the same fans who incessantly whinge about Silverstone, forgetting of course that a) Max could have turned out, just had Hamilton has had to do in about a dozen races and b) it’s bloody dangerous in open wheel races. As demonstrated in Silverstone and Monza, and no one wants to see a driver killed.
Finally the flawed nature of Max’s driving was demonstrated when he brake tested Hamilton in SD. That is absolutely unacceptable in any form of motor sport and he should have got black flagged for it. My opinion of course, but that was a di*k move of the highest order.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Toto and his team had the shortest period of time of anyone to make a decision. It was a no-brainer for Red Bull to do the opposite and Hamilton would have questioned the strategy if they had pitted him and given up track position, that is the nature of him as a driver. Masi had the longest time of all of them to take in what was happening and still messed it up. I suspect all the other teams would have made the same call as Toto if it was their man in front, Toto made the only call he sensibly could then.
Now if you asked why they chose to cover off Max coming off softs after about 15 laps vs continuing to stretch the lead on mediums, have the potential to benefit from a cheap pit later under VSC / safety and finish the race on fresher tyres for a one stop, I'd agree that call was questionable. The undercut was not a consideration and IMHO Merc gave up the tyre advantage at that point.
Well, he and Hamilton were apparently great mates and by having 'car trouble' on the last couple of corners he gave Hamilton the points he needed to 'rob' race winner Massa of the championship. As 'anyone could see'.
Fortunate for Hamilton, sad for Massa, but not that different from the RD making a decision to let the race finish under green flags, but then (as someone said) that doesn't fit the narrative of the Hamilton zealots.
M
Last edited by snowman; 17th December 2021 at 18:05.
Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
I think that's a little bit different, if it was the case, to someone having a 14 second lead with 5 laps to go and then be thwarted by a RD that is obviously out of his depth, or easily bought!!!!!!!Well, he and Hamilton were apparently great mates and by having 'car trouble' on the last couple of corners he gave Hamilton the points he needed to 'rob' race winner Massa of the championship. As 'anyone could see'.
Fortunate for Hamilton, sad for Massa, but not that different from the RD making a decision to let the race finish under green flags, but then (as someone said) that doesn't fit the narrative of the Hamilton zealots.
M
Of course it is, if you think Hamilton and Mercedes should always win.
Both had an outside element that changed the result at the last moment.
Little difference really.
M
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Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
But it wasn’t car trouble. Both Glock and his team mate Trulli were the only cars in the points on dry tyres when it had started to rain. BOTH cars had slowed considerably.Well, he and Hamilton were apparently great mates and by having 'car trouble' on the last couple of corners he gave Hamilton the points he needed to 'rob' race winner Massa of the championship. As 'anyone could see'.
Fortunate for Hamilton, sad for Massa, but not that different from the RD making a decision to let the race finish under green flags, but then (as someone said) that doesn't fit the narrative of the Hamilton zealots.
M
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...on-motorsports
And gifted Hamilton the points, within sight of the flag.
Ultimately, it happened, it doesn't matter why.
Hamilton was on the wrong tyres in Abu Dhabi and slowed considerably.
No one is suggesting Massa has Hamilton's championship the way they are about this one.
M
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Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
Not a big F1 fan, but anyone who knows anything about sporting integrity knows what happened was wrong.
I couldn’t care less who won but what happened wasn’t right.
Procedures need to be followed, not race directors discretion, Masi basically decided who he wanted to win the championship.
I don’t understand how people can say Mercedes got it tactically wrong, they had a 12 second lead and 5 lapped cars between them with 5 laps left.
Norris also stayed on slicks and slid off which allowed Hamilton to drive by for the win. Nobody is suggesting that was deliberate because obviously it wasn’t.
thieuster suggested 2008 was a dodgy race, but it wasn’t. The Toyotas were on the wrong tyres at the wrong time.
Interesting however you need to show where exactly on the track all these cars were when decisions were taking and calls were made to Masi. Like for example RBR call to Masi on lap 56 pleading for just one racing lap..
You would also need to factor in the previous safety cars precedents that were previous set. For example if Hamilton had pitted for new tyres, and Masi applied normal precedents of allowing ALL lapped cars to unlap themselves and for the safety car to pit only after that had happen. Max would have still been in the lead and would have won the race under the safety car (because it typically takes about 3 lap for the lapped cars to rejoin the train, which explains why Mercedes didn’t pit him.
If Masi was seriously about finishing the race under greens, then surely he should have red flagged the race immediately, rather than making his decision on laps 57, when it was to late for Hamilton to pit and challenge.
Its a good effort to justify Max’s “win”, but unfortunately it doesn’t stand up. Sorry.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
I think you need to read up on this. The only reason Glock was in the position was that Vettel and Hamilton pitted was because of the weather, Glock stayed out. Had he pitted, then he would have been 25 seconds behind Hamilton and Vettel anyway. The weather worsened (as expected) which was why Hamilton AND Vettel were able to cruise pass him on the last lap. No robbery involved, especially as Hamilton had a lead over Massa going into the final race.Well, he and Hamilton were apparently great mates and by having 'car trouble' on the last couple of corners he gave Hamilton the points he needed to 'rob' race winner Massa of the championship. As 'anyone could see'.
Fortunate for Hamilton, sad for Massa, but not that different from the RD making a decision to let the race finish under green flags, but then (as someone said) that doesn't fit the narrative of the Hamilton zealots.
M
BTW Hamilton wasn’t driving for Mercedes in 2008, he was driving for McLaren, but I guess you knew that.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
It's a completely different situation, Glock stayed on slicks and it rained heavier on the last lap and he lost 20 seconds (as did all those who stayed on slicks). There was no controversial decision from the FIA affecting the outcome.
I don't regard Brazil 2008 as especially lucky for Hamilton as he was in the position he needed to be in to win the championship in the dry and then it rained right near the end which is always a bit of a lottery.
If anything Massa was screwed by Renault's Crashgate conspiracy earlier that season. Lewis was also screwed earlier this season by Max being awarded points for "winning" the non race in Spa.
Last edited by watchcollector1; 18th December 2021 at 10:14.
This has nothing to do with Merc strategy and everything to do with Merc being totally unable to second guess a completely novel approach to restarting a race.
If you listened to Lewis' radio dialogue with Bono, you'll know that Bono said they do not expect the race to restart before the end. It'll end under SC and Lewis wins the race and WDC.
Max was gifted the title. It stinks. Lewis doesn't want this tainted title. Maybe Max will go on to exceed Lewis' achievements. But here and now, he is a hollow champion and he knows it and so do his fans.
Bring on 2022
Well, I figured my post would stir the Hamilton-ant-nest.
I thought it was a shame Massa didn't clinch the championship with one of his best races, but no one was crying foul when Glock moved over the way they are throwing insults at Verstappen, Horner and Red Bull when a third party made a decision that benefitted them.
Those doing so need to take a look at their motivation.
Your hero has shown more dignity than you are (although not turning up at the prize giving did rather taint my good impression of him up to that point).
Did Masi care who won the race? Maybe, I don't know, I doubt anyone else here does either. Another Hamilton/Mercedes win might not have been as good for F1 worldwide, but there was no guarantee of that.
More likely he didn't want the sad sight of a procession to the chequered flag behind the pace car, but obviously it played to the team who had gambled on a tyre stop, not the one running on old, hard tyres.
Mercedes DID make a tactical mistake. Not post Latifi's crash, but earlier.
Hamilton knew it, they simply didn't trust him to be able to get back past Verstappen, maybe they thought it would end in a collision and court, but the lack of faith in their driver left them in the position of having no defence at the end.
If the marshals had got Latifi off the track two laps earlier and not moved any cars out of the way, the same thing would have happened.
How would the Hamilton fans be spinning that scenario?
M
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Breitling Cosmonaute 809 - What's not to like?
I suspect we have a troll in the house. Don’t feed the troll
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
It is so much easier to call troll when even you are struggling to sea lion him.
I do not subscribe to the Glock conspiracy as indeed he was struggling but he could have made things more difficult for LH.
However the point about MB tactical error is 100%. Yes, without the crash it was a winning strategy. But no race is guaranteed to be SC car free. You are all waxing lyrical about the lead LH built, which means his car was faster. An earlier change (during the VSC for example) would have given him victory in all scenarii. As would have an immediate pit after the crash. Not to mention the tyre advantage they threw away at the beginning.
But it is no doubt more convenient to blame it all on a third party.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
It would be so much easier for folks to agree to disagree as well, but they don’t…
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