Reply With QuoteJesus. I hope Braverman's not looking.
Just read this on BBC News. Our world gets more alien to me every day. I don’t have the answers but the images are quite amazing/shocking.
Thousands of tattooed inmates pictured in El Salvador mega-prison https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-64770716
Jesus. I hope Braverman's not looking.
I hope she is.
This is the G&D.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Saw this earlier - what a waste of lives.
It is indeed but it’s the gang and criminal life that’s destroying lives. Maybe something like this here might be some sort of deterrent though.
Originally Posted by Kingstepper
And they have large operations in the USA. Upon release their de sensitivity to violence and PTSD will be huge, no human could survive and be the same. Whilst Trumps immigration policies are controversial I’m certainly glad my children don’t have to grow up navigating gangs like that
I know they’re criminals and most will
have chosen a path in life that is reprehensible but I do feel uneasy about dehumanising so many. I wonder if in 50 years time all prisons are like this or we’ll look back in horror.
As said earlier, I’m so glad my kids don’t have to navigate gangs and gang culture that leads to this
I agree, I think it’s a terrible idea to dehumanise them like this. Ultimately most will be released and they’ll be worse than ever. I’m sure the majority were suckered in before they were even teenagers. But without extensive psychological support, that they’ll never get, it’s frightening to think about what some of them will do on release.
Watched something the other day that was covering the death of PC Andrew Harper. You'll all recall that he lost his life at the hands of some car thieves. His leg was caught in a tow rope and he was towed for 1 mile at speed.
It is well documented that the 3 people charged with his manslaughter showed no remorse at all. They were part of the travelling community and laughed and cheered when they avoided a sentence of murder.
In instances like that where they have no empathy, compassion and do not value another person's life, how do you punish them?
More of a bear pit discussion to be honest but I can see both sides of this. The evil in society seems to be growing and there seem to be fewer deterrents that have any meaningful impression on these types of people.
I'm not saying the prisons highlighted are the answer.... But what is?
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Lobotomy?
You are wrong there because they plan never to release them at all "welcomes its first new inmates with vow 'You will never walk out of here"
We ought to treat the really bad scumbag criminals here the same way.
El Salvador has the highest murder rate in the world per capita, or it had a few years ago. It seems the narco trail from South America through Central America all the way up to the USA leaves utter carnage & devastation in its wake.
Last edited by zippy; 27th February 2023 at 21:14.
I for one felt they got off very lightly given the extended nature of the incident, the victims profession and their lack of remorse, any contrition... they beat the murder rap, HEROES to their family/ community... Though iirc when it was discussed downstairs there were some felt the sentence was entirely just.
To me, they have already been dehumanised by the life they have chosen to lead. What they need, I believe, is to be Humanised. Split apart and spread throughout the country in special units designed for rehabilitation and to try and readjust them so that they have a life to look forward to and to do good in. I am sure that with the right will and expertise it would be cheaper in the long run too (as it seems that money is the overriding factor in the world today when making decisions... :0( )
Unbelievable disregard for human rights, as expected from a right-wing dictator.
Sad.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Read that article the other day.
Mixed feelings but desperate measures are sometimes needed to change things.
It seems to be very popular with the public and if you can't function as a society due to gang violence or just violence in general then a meaningful deterrent is the answer.
From the report it seems as if the murder rate has fallen dramatically with the draconian measures.
The biggest negative seems to be the innocents wrongly pulled in by the dragnet and subjected to that hell.
As others mentioned probably a Bear Pit discussion.
Those Scumbag prisoners don’t deserve any Human Rights
Simpletons like simple answers to complex problems.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Here we go the forum intellectuals.
Those scumbags in that prison would think nothing of slitting your throat then just walk on by, simply because you have no tattoo. They are totally beyond redemption. But you would know better no doubt.
Any civilised, decent person would want all criminals to be rehabilitated where possible but there's also a need to be realistic in terms of what is achievable in the short to medium term. It's easy to pour liberal scorn from the sidelines when you're not responsible for addressing the huge damage criminal gangs reap on society and there's no prospect of them living next door to you.
It's far from ideal but if you willingly commit heinous crimes then I think you lose the right to demand society provides you with greater respect than you afforded your victims.
This sums up my feelings. I'm not so sure that rehabilitation for such hardened criminals is that successful. The die is often cast very early in their lives and should they ever be released they eventually stray back to their old behaviours.
I don't minimise the scale of the problem, and I entirely agree that it must be brought under control.
However the issues are multiple; here are just 3:
1) from what I understand, the tattoos mark these men as gang members but not as individual criminals; regardless of how likely that may be, you need to be able to pin a crime to a suspect and get him convicted in a court of law, and that hasn't happened.
2) many if not most of these men joined the gangs as a matter of survival precisely because not doing so would likely be a death warrant. And that is a consequence of the lack of state policing. This catch 22 situation needs to be resolved or the "recruitment" will not just continue but expand to replace those imprisoned and reconstitute their ranks
3) those numbers are considerable and represent a generation of young men from a very disadvantaged background. Their imprisonment will put their families under even deeper poverty which in itself will drive them to crime. Again, a vicious circle.
As I said, complex problems do not have simple solutions.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Unwind with a pint or two in our own virtual pub. Friendly banter and clean jokes please and no politics or religion.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Human rights = the rights of humans. It's in the name, literally.
It's also in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of the United Nations, which has been signed in 1948 by the founding members of the UN El Salvador and the United Kingdom, along with 191 other member states (including Russia and China, I know).
Last edited by Raffe; 27th February 2023 at 16:47.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
All valid points about which there is no argument from me; I also prefer the revised wording of your final comment negating the potential critical inference with regard to simple answers.
My comments were made primarily because I often feel the rights of any victims, future victims and the law abiding majority are given insufficient regard by the more liberal among us who advocate for a better solution, often with no experience of the criminal justice system or idea of how to implement/fund their better solutions but the comfort that they personally are unlikely to be impacted.
Dealing with hardened criminals, both proven and suspected, is a problem for which society has never found a perfect solution and probably never will so we need to accept there will be some injustice in the best solutions we have. It's really a case of what's best for the majority whilst mitigating the negative impacts on the innocent (and less hardened criminals) as far as possible.
I don't specifically advocate for this approach or any other as I'm aware my knowledge is limited to some interactions with prisons/prisoners but if history suggests this approach was more successful than its predecessor then I suspect the liberal armchair experts would still focus exclusively on its weaknesses.
I think this is the essence of it. Prohibition didn’t work with alcohol and it’s not working with drugs. I hate ”recreational” drugs but I’d like to see them legalized. Better to control and tax legitimate businesses.
That comment was directed at the poster before me, because that is how it was formulated.
Have you heard of the Cathares and the massacre of Beziers in 1209? Arnaud Almaric, leading the Albigensian crusade would have said "Caedite eos, novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius": Kill them all, God will know His own.
There is no difference in the Salvadorian approach, 900 years later. Nor is there in some of the comments above.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Fair point on the simpleton comment and no to the learned reference but I'll have a look later Whilst I think I appreciate your point I suspect there will prove to be substantial differences between what looks to be the initial phase of a program of gang member incarceration and wholesale indiscriminate slaughter.
It’s not surprising why 85% of the people on here can’t stand you and your other cronies, always seizing the chance to police the forum and deride other members. Just another keyboard warrior.
I am not a violent man but if you called me a simpleton to my face I would rip yours off.
great photography
C'mon guys - this is the G&D right?
Unwind with a pint or two in our own virtual pub. Friendly banter and clean jokes please and no politics or religion.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
To right. I expressed my opinion and was insulted.
Waiting for the thread to be moved.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
I don’t know how to do that. Is that up to Eddie? Perhaps naïve of me to think it wouldn’t end up in the Bear Pit. I don’t have a solution to such a complicated problem and don’t necessarily disagree with this approach but the images are shocking and as mentioned by another poster earlier, the photographs are amazing. It all seems surreal and not quite of this world or time. Probably going to be commonplace in 20 years
Not a violent man but you'd rip someone's face off for calling you a name!?! Grow up FFS ... (not calling you anything obviously, I value my good looks).
Where does the 85% figure come from? It's a topical discussion forum. For educated opinions to interact and maybe a little banter thrown in but all good. You know NOTHING about those people in that prison except for what you've read and have decided that based on their tattoos they deserve everything they're getting??? Maybe this isn't the place for you. At least try to justify your viewpoint with some sort of credible evidence. DUH!!.
How else is he supposed to form an opinion?
Go out there for some on the ground real life experience.
Maybe if his opinion is so fervent he should do some research rather than focusing on tattoos. Everyone and his dog has one these days.
I know enough what these people are like having watched a fair few documentary’s and read some articles on the gangs and the old prisons. The tattoo element is a sign of the gang you run with and therefore it marks out victims for either side. They kill each other at the drop of a hat.
So you don't think there's a possibility that mass arrest and incarceration might affect innocent people just because they have tattoos or is the collateral damage justified because the bad element are very bad?
One documentary I watched the police clearly knew the tattoos for each gang. To be a member of the gang you had to do whatever the gang wanted even commit murder. You do not wear a gang tattoo for no reason, so I would say it’s pretty reasonable to think you have the guilty in those prisons.
Now who’s the keyboard warrior now?
The opinion you expressed did not exactly convey the detailed reflection that lead you to make that statement.
As for your statistics, they express your frustration at putting forward a convincing case against my repudiation of your statement as you had to make them up. Although the usual trick is to allude to the many PMs of support that you have received.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Not one PM of support.
My information on your not liked status is one of many threads over the years where TZ members show their distaste of you.
The silent majority is coming.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
And we are off. So very predictable. My job here is doneThe silent majority is coming.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
They belong to drug cartels. They haven't just been to Skegness on a booze up weekend and called in the local tattooist. The tattoos represent which gang/cartel they belong to, and how many kills they have.
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