Reply With QuoteMy team would disagree, and you know nothing about me. However, think as you will as I’m no longer interested in engaging on this one. I’m just glad I don’t have to deal with you professionally.Originally Posted by watchstudent
It is not only a gender issue. It is a problem mostly encountered by one gender though.
Honestly, if you can’t see that then you are a part of the problem of gender inequality.
So your employer was willing to be flexible. That’s great.
- - - Updated - - -
Honestly…
It might not be about sexism, but gender is at the heart of it. This lack of empathy and willingness to support a female after child birth is the same as unconscious bias. It’s men acting in what they consider to be a pragmatic way without the ability to understand the females needs. Can primary school job shares work; lots of teachers, parents and head teachers swear by them. It just takes a strong headteacher to stand up to parents who think they know best. Even worse when comments, such as, I’m paying for it get thrown about
Maybe it's not gender inequality and just the reality that women are more likely to want to be primary carer for their children?
One could easily say you are part of the problem by expecting your wife and her employer to facilitate flexible working arrangements instead of making those arrangements yourself so she doesn't have to. You say your current role doesn't facilitate this, then maybe you can move jobs?
This.
Lack of strong leadership is at the heart of it.
Not expecting my wife to do anything. I am not going to go into the specifics about our specific situation but me changing jobs is not feasible, arguably my employer is worse than my wives but I am somewhat trapped at the moment. I would have gone part time so she could have stayed full time in a heat beat but with my rota child care would be impossible and we cannot live on her wage alone.
That makes it a gender issue…
Sorry to hear that's the way your wife has been treated OP. With the general teacher shortage you would think they would try to keep a quality teacher in the books (but perhaps the shortage is why they are not accommodating??).
Probably a bit different here in Australia but we've found the teaching industry to be more than accommodating with part time return to work after children for my wife and our two children (less so when i tried with my employer but that's a different matter and I'm no longer there).
While working part time my wife also completed her honours and master's degrees and now back to full time work is a more qualified and better educator for it and performing a guidance officer role giving critical care for the students that is in desperate need at the moment. Something she would never have been able to do if forced back to work full time so surely a win for the students and the profession.
For those genuinely opposed to multiple teachers in the class room I'm not certain what the objection is. Our kids have experienced it many times and it has only been positive. I would much rather my children be taught by committed parents with a genuine interest and involvement in their own children rather than those forced back into the workplace and not wanting to be there or not interested in children. Multiple teachers also forces the kids to learn and adapt to different people which can only set them up better for adult life.
Also what is the "education" we're giving our kids if staff are forced to either resign or sacrifice their family for their job. Not quite the example I want to set for my children.
Once again I'm probably a little biased as we've been spoilt with our situation but it has only made for my wife to be a better employee in the end and have a better relationship as a family.
As a few have mentioned it might be time to look for a new school. Definitely a daunting prospect with a new child but if her wages barely cover child care is it possible to take a year off, regroup, recover, play and bond with her daughter and then come back in 2024?
All the best and sure any school would be happy to have here in any capacity.
I don't know what to say to you then, but the reality you expect your wife's employer to solve your problem rather than address it with your own or find a suitable alternative.
I am expecting my wife’s employer to make a reasonable adjustment to allow her to come back to work following childbirth and while still caring for an infant.
To be honest, I think, unexpectedly, I have found the inherent problem in this thread.
Either I am an unreasonable liberal leftie or these attitudes/lack of acceptance towards female gender issues are far more prevalent than I ever expected them to be.
I guess neither outcome that shocking… just a bit sad
Last edited by watchstudent; 18th March 2023 at 00:50.
If you were as Liberal as you think you are you wouldn't be pinning all of your expectations on your wife or her employer.
And just because it's reasonable to you doesn't mean it's reasonable to an employer. It sounds like you have been naive here expecting something that there clearly isn't any precedent for nor did you agree in advance.
I sympathise, genuinely, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree
In what way(s) was it detrimental for your daughter?
I actually came here just for practical advice, not opinions! It took a turn!
Not meaning to be harsh but you could summarise this as follows,
Full time teacher makes request to work part time.
School management reject request because it doesn't work for them.
The end!
Personal situation - Ours went into nursery and we both went back full time. We all survived!
Good luck!
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Last edited by xxnick1975; 18th March 2023 at 02:25.
This is one of the most balanced posts on the thread
Two teachers can be better than one for the children as each teacher brings their own strengths and to a certain extent challenge each other to ensure high quality teaching
To the OP - ask the school to outline the exact reason why the request cannot be accommodated in writing. Then seek the advice of the union and their legal team. You can appeal the decision within 14 days.
The school has to be able to demonstrate that it cannot accommodate - the onus of proof is on them not you. With teaching being a profession where job shares are actively used abs recruited for I cannot think of a justifiable reason legally that they could reject.
I have dealt with 3 flexible working requests in my team over the last couple of years - all from males, all for part time working to spend more time with their family, all granted. I couldn’t even get a job share approved in terms of recruitment but even then morally it’s the right thing to do but also for the business there was no justification to reject. Alongside this those 3 people were happier and dare I say it more productive when part time because they were supported - the impact to the team was overall positive.
Simple. Her learning suffered.
Whether multiple teachers is good or bad is debatable. There are children who may struggle more and others who will thrive, and for most it will make no difference.
But that’s besides the point.
The primary issue here is gender discrimination.
Women have nowadays at least a decent maternity leave (it was not always the case) and the company must give them their job back when they return.
Yet that doesn’t solve the discrimination as there is now an infant in the equation, and therefore the previous arrangement may need to be altered.
I believe the OP works for the NHS. If you think he should work part time you haven’t needed the NHS recently.
I would fight it if the union supports her but I would also consider applying to other schools: a better one (management wise) may be trying to accommodate one of their teachers back from maternity leave and will be delighted to see your wife as she will fill the need they have for a part time.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Yes, there’s an infant in the equation but it isn’t solely an issue for the female partner.
It’s only gender discrimination if the school won’t accede because she is female. Would if be different if the teacher were male?
Maybe you’ll just have to work around it. Our nursery fees were £1300 a month for 4 days a week when my daughter was 1 . Was it better for both of us parents to work full time and pay up? Yes it was . We had no family either. Maybe you’ll just have to bite the bullet and crack on. No , it’s not nice to send your child off from 0745 until 1700 to be looked after by somebody else at great cost but that’s another option rather than your wife giving up her job because her employer won’t accommodate her requirements. Not what you wanted to hear I suspect but that’s the choice that you made when you decided to have a family without family support. Good luck with it . It does suck but we got through it and as they all say it does get easier:)
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This…why does everything have to be about bloody gender and sexism now. Why can it not be that the request isn't suitable for the school…end of?
Last edited by Franky Four Fingers; 18th March 2023 at 08:14.
Marc, you’ve prompted me to say one more thing on this…
You say it’s gender discrimination, but that’s an unjustifiable accusation given your lack of visibility of the process and reasoning in this case. I do agree, however, that the challenge women face in terms of balancing work and childcare makes that a gender issue. It’s a gender issue because, in the main, women are still very much bearing the brunt of childcare responsibilities. Further, I’ve only recently helped one of my team transition back to work following mat leave, and that also needs to be accommodated thoughtfully as it can be a difficult and sometimes frightening process for a host of reasons.
I haven’t had time to read about Hunt’s budget properly yet, but I think I’m right in saying that there was a pretty decent commitment to much-needed childcare support in there, which would be great.
How?
She was 8 . She fell behind in her spelling , maths and reading when compared to the other children in the same year but from different classes . We did extra work with her throughout the summer Holidays and she caught up. This wasn’t what was needed after the Covid 19 online teaching fiasco. Quite a few of the other children in her class also fell behind. This was brought to the Heads attention as a group of parents and was rectified the following year by going back to a single teacher.
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My wife is head of HR for a very large UK company, I asked her for general comments around the situation you described in the first post and like most HR type questions the reply started with ‘it depends’.
She did mention there are some specific and legislated differences with regard to education settings, but the general response (that I alluded to in my other reply on the thread) was that the school management should have looked into it (sounds like they have?) and especially in the event of a refusal to accommodate the request explained their reasons why?
It’s a go from there situation really.
Thank you for taking the time.
I think it is fair to say that the school has not properly explored ways that it could work for both parties. They certainly haven't given what I would perceive as thorough reasons why they can't accommodate. The union agrees. So we will see where it goes.
A number of people saying why don't we just suck it up and both work full time. If that would work then we would, basically because not only does my job involve nights and unpredictable hours but they will also send me to places to work where I would have to live far from home for extended periods. So my wife would be a single parent, working full time, bringing work home, still needing to do after school duties... blah blah. I guess some may think that is still doable, personally, I don't think it is while maintaining your sanity. Totally aware that is an "us" problem and not the employers problem.
Last edited by watchstudent; 18th March 2023 at 09:13.
First off, many congrats on the new child.
Regarding the HR issue, I am sure you would have read the guidance, but if not see a helpful link here:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/wo...-when-it-ends/
In particular it says:
When you ask for flexible working your employer doesn’t have to say yes, but they should:
- arrange a meeting to discuss your request
- give you a decision within 3 months
- give you their answer in writing, including their reasons if they refuse
I wonder if they followed the above?
At work, I sometimes manage situations such as this. We always try our hardest to support those returning from maternity leave. Often, working hours do change to accomodate childcare, etc.
However, if the employee is a full time teacher, I can see why that would be difficult. There is certainly a case to say going from 5 days (assuming that was what she did pre- mat leave) to 2 days is not going to work for the school. Whether they followed the correct process is a different matter. Could there be another job in the school she may wish to explore which would work for them 2 days per week? I would suggest attemping to hold meetings with the management and resolve amicably in this way, may be the way forward.
You should keep in mind, there is no automatic right to be able to work different / less hours. Most people assume it is a given right from my experience, actually it isn't and it will depend on business / orgnisation needs. I hope you both manage to get it sorted to your satisfaction in any case.
They didn’t reply within 3 months, it was 4 only after we chased them. No meeting. Just a letter stating they couldn’t accommodate.
Being as they have been taken to tribunal before they know the rules so think they are hoping my wife will just roll over.
They should have followed due process for sure. I'd therefore give them the opportunity to put that right by giving you an account of their reasoning, and then think about whether you're still miffed enough to consider taking it to Tribunal.
Just be aware that Tribunal is a course of action that can have unwelcome consequences, and can sometimes make the role untenable afterwards (it shouldn't, of course, but I'm talking reality rather than theory).
I know it is difficult and having one parent work part time does help but many parents in teaching and medicine make this work. It may mean you have to alter your original plans and make sacrifices like paying more for childcare or one of you taking time out. Sad but this is what many people do.
My wife is also a teacher, after our first child she went back to work after six months and at full time, mainly because we could not afford her to work part time at that time period. It was tough to leave our son but needs must.
When I changed jobs, she was able to move as well and selected a 3 day a week job share role. This was better on the childcare front but in reality teaching isn’t really a part time job as her other days and nights were still full of planning, marking etc. Use to annoy me as I said you are doing full time hours for part time pay!
When we had our second, we were in a better place financially and took the decision to become a 1 income household and that she would take time out to be a home carer. It hasn’t always been easy for lots of reasons but it has worked for us.
I suppose my point is that it is up to the employer and if they refuse, they can’t be forced to accept. You can get them to review and follow a proper procedure but I suspect the outcome will be the same. You won’t get any unfair dismissal/constructive claims you will just generate bad feeling on both sides and no doubt break any working relationship. I see a few options for you;
1) Suck it up, look to alter your plans and maybe try again in the future
2) Resign, look for a new part time role elsewhere
3) Role reversal and you go part-time. It will extend your training time but can be done
Last edited by paw3001; 18th March 2023 at 10:10.
Sadly- they have now taken a stand, and if your appraisal of their demeanour is correct - then I suspect they will not reverse that.
Right now - there is possibly no ill feeling from the School's management, but that will change if you push further.
I think you both have to suck it up and arrange childcare. Finding a teaching jobshare in your commuting circle - is not going to be easy, especially in the immediate future.
Good luck with it all.
OP, you mention night working, could you not opt to work nights only? I moved to permanent nights around seven years ago, when my kids mammy went back to work, and it has worked well for us.
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Agreed. My daughter is in public school and has had 2 teachers for 2 of her years there and it was not ideal. Handovers between the teachers were not always great with home work forgotten about, repetition of work etc.
If she were at a private school it is likely something I would be complaining about having paid for her to be there. I would want her to have minimum instability.
The sad thing is that requests like this one are one of the reasons why some places prefer to hire only males or females that are not of child bearing age for higher positions.
In one of the companies i deal with all the Project Managers are male - for the very simple reason they won't go off on maternity leave - (this is legal here). This in in a country where women get 8 weeks maternity and men get one week paternity leave. Most women leave for a minimum of 5 years when having children and companies can't see the point having them at high levels when they could just up and leave.
Oh and for all those who want to have a go at me about this - I've been here > 20 yrs and I don't have a vote so I can't do much to try to change it.
Ha, sounds like you are living my life of 9 years ago!! I did long 15hr nights shifts regularly and yes it was hard work but you’ll get through it. Parenting and logistics aren’t easy. My other half was essentially a single parent 6 days a week as well as working which wasn’t nice but you will both adapt either by moving vocations or locations or both as we did and moved out of London to Bristol Additionally primary school was only a year away and breakfast club and after school clubs weren’t going to happen as that’s piss poor for kids and parents lives IMHO.
Changes are good. Sometimes you gotta make it happen:)
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Been where? you give absolutely no clue. (or relevance)
Over the years I have had 6 requests from staff for flexible working.
4 approved, 2 declined due to needs of the service not being able to accommodate the request. All followed due process.
It seems that there was deviation from the process in this case but would the OP still have been irked if the process had been adhered to and the request was still declined?
Not all requests can be accommodated
Last edited by SydR; 18th March 2023 at 11:28.
time to look for another job , regardless of any tribunal outcome (if thats what you intend to do) then i'd assumethat if you won it the school would go out of its way to make your wifes job as 'difficult' as possible.
a bad employer will be vindictive.
... that said if i was employing someone in a full time position and they decided to try and dictate the terms of employment to me i would not be happy either.
In every class some children fall behind, why do you think a shared class is the cause?
I’d hope you could articulate this as it sounds like this opinion has caused a teacher their job?
Asia, sorry can't really say more than that.
It is a gender discrimination, but not only from the employer: Biology means that women are the ones who bear children, and who must take care of the infant in the early weeks at least. Therefore society has evolved around that model for ever.
That model was hardly challenged for centuries and women just "had to get on with it" until they started to question it. Everything from them on has been a fight, from receiving the pay themselves (it was initially paid to the husband), to being allowed to vote, to be entitled to maternity leave and get their job back when they returned.
Yes, all this has added constraints and complexities on the employer. The idea is that your gender should not put you at a disadvantage.
But as the OP acknowledged the decision to accommodate beyond the legal requirement (maternity leave) is at their discretion. Since women are the only ones who will find themselves in this situation (on this issue: on most other reasons to request a part time there is no gender issue) it is putting them at a disadvantage and therefore creates a discrimination.
I believe Sweden and Finland manage this much better but I do not have the details; if one of our Scandinavian members cares to step in...
Also, society is starting to realise that biology creates this inequality and is starting to take steps to minimise the consequences on the employment front. Spain has recently voted a menstrual leave
And yes of course it is disruptive for the employer. Just as it is to grant leaves at what may be a busy time of year. Any benefit for the employee is somewhere, in some way, a loss of revenue to the employer. But it also allows them to attract people that would not consider bringing their expertise without them. Cue, Hunt trying to lure doctors to remain in employment through pension advantages.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
As per Stunos post above. A lack of continuity, home tasks not carried through to the next class , spelling tests not done, spellings not given out. I could go on as it seems you want me to dissect the situation on here which I’m not going to do. Maybe it did cost a teacher a job. You get poor workers in every field and unfortunately they exist in teaching too unless you think that all teachers are perfect. My daughter is now doing extremely well and is classed above standard ability for her year group. Thankyou for your interest though. Have a nice day .
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A question for the OP:
did you consider asking the school what would be the likely outcome of your wife being able to obtain part time work after having a baby?
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
There isn’t simply enough information on this post to suggest that there was any discrimination when the decision was made not to employ her on a part time basis. Other than the OP’s clear dislike for the school his wife his working for and his side of the story of the underlying “misogyny” that goes on there that’s all we have. How you can quite make such statements here is beyond me.
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Because my post was not specific to the school. The way women are treated at work may be at best the same as men but the difficulty they face are different. Until this aspect is addressed women will be at a disadvantage. You can argue whether it should be called discrimination, but in practice it amounts to that.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Well I was assuming that your post was in the context of this particular thread which is the reason we’’’re all replying?
As for women being the only ones this is applicable to, that’s not strictly true is it?
Same sex couples (men) have been having kids either through adoption or surrogacy for years. Childcare would still be an issues for these guys if they had to go back to work. If they were denied this request is that male discrimination, or perhaps some form of homophobia?
There is no way you can shout discrimination in this case because you’re not in full receipt of the facts.
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And why her employer has to accommodate their lifestyle decision to have a baby while his or his business doesn't have to do the same. Shocking arrogance and entitlement expectations.
Reminds me of an urgent meeting called by an employee years ago demanding a pay rise as he was expecting his fourth child!
I am sure you're aware that this is a fallacy. A bit like saying that someone isn't antisemitic because one of his mate is Jewish. The issue is usually not just child care. Returning to work after a pregnancy isn't on the same level as returning to work after a cold. This is why the process must be transparent: while the OP states that the issue is with child care from his perspective, there may be other factors that come into play that preclude a return to full time employment.
Again the inequality is intrinsic so applies to this case as well as in a more global way. Due process might have alleviated this a bit as the employer needs to demonstrate convincingly that it cannot be accommodated.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
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